A guest on Ben Greenfield Podcast, Dr. Cook discusses fixing a knee without surgery, building “young muscle”, Zenjections for the vagus nerve

 My name is Ben Greenfield, and on this episode of the Ben Greenfield Life Podcast, you have more bacteria in yeast in your gut than there are star in the, in the sky, in the colon, but then in the small intestine, it's supposed to be nothing. When the bacteria kind of crawl up into the small intestine, it's small and it can't take being distended.

So then what we do is we do a trio test. We look to see if there are bacteria and if they're methane, the trio is a breath test, right? It's a breath test. And then based upon that, we'll do potentially some antibiotics, and then we will potentially give them some peptides, and the peptides would be like maybe an immune peptide and LL 37.

In parallel to that, then we may give them a diet that focuses on waiting for minable foods. Okay? Like specific carbohydrate dieter or a low FODMAP diet.

Faith. Family, fitness, health, performance, nutrition, longevity, ancestral living, biohacking, and a whole lot more. Welcome to the show.

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Try it out. organify.com/ben. Matt Cook is I think one of the most repeated guests in my podcast of all time, Dr. Matthew Cook. Now I'm gonna link to all of his fascinating previous episodes. If you go to ben greenfield life.com/young mussel, why ben greenfield life.com/young mussel because. Matt took my knee over the past year and a half from hobbling, swollen and barely being able to like run, walk squat, play tennis, play pickleball, anything, and now it's at like 90% and continually getting better.

He uses exosomes, he uses stem cells, he uses placental matrix. He uses nerve hydro dissection. He has all these crazy tricks up his sleeve, but has a really, really cool perspective from a regenerative manen standpoint on muscles, ligaments, tendons, joints, and maintaining this so-called young muscle. And even combines it with things like vagus nerve resets and other combinations that help to treat not only the muscles in the joint, but also the brain.

Now if I happen to sound like I have the voice of God on today's podcast or more specifically a smooth, buttery, best podcasting voice ever, cuz I do have a, I think as we were talking about earlier, Matt, not only a voice for radio, but also both of us have a nice face for radio. Hey man. Yeah, it's probably because of that weird needle you just stuck into my neck and I'd, I would be curious, as I'm sure my listeners would also be about what this thing is that you do with the vagus nerve.

So what is that that we just did? So that is something called a vagus nerve, hydro tion. The traditional thing that I do for people with P T S D and trauma or people with chronic nerve pain, especially in the head and neck, is I will take a needle and put it in the area where the fight or flight nerves are in the front of the neck.

Turns out the rest and relaxed nerves are right next to those. And that's called the rest, the main rest and relaxed nerve that goes to your heart and lungs and intestines that comes from your brain is called the vagus nerve. And so what I do is I take that needle and I come close to the vagus nerve, and then I put a little fluid of growth factors around the vagus nerve.

And what it does is it tends to support it it seems to turn it on. You feel kind of your voice starts to get rich in. And part of that is because one of the branches of the vagus nerves goes to your voice box. And so I did that kind of selfishly just to improve the vocal tone and rocky roots, right?

So when we bring the band back, and if that went over everybody's head, check out rocky roots music.com where Matt and I have a, an EP of an album that we recorded. We're actually recording at Matt's office, passing a microphone back and forth. So this is probably gonna be the least You ever hear me interrupt the podcast guest since we are doing the, the mic passing.

But anyways, the, this whole Vegas nerve approach, like I feel a combination of like super relaxed, de-stressed kind of zen after doing it almost. I, I would love to test my H R V right now, cause I would imagine it's pretty high. What would be the reason besides just cheer curiosity on my part, which is why I did it, that people would do a procedure like this.

Our primary TR trajectory of using, using this procedure is people with P ts D and trauma. And, and for those people we are re rebooting and resetting the, the fight or flight nerves, but then we'll also treat the vagus nerve. One of the things I started to see is sometimes people would lose weight after I did it.

Because they have less visceral fat. Sometimes I would see people, they would say, oh, all of my abdominal pain went away. Or people will start to say, I just start to feel better in my inte intestines. People with chronic pain in their intestines often will start to get better. So and, and we were doing that with numbing medicines.

I'm using ropivacaine, which is a local anesthetic, and that the concept of that is to turn those nerves off, kinda like you're turning a computer off and rebooting it. And that was why I actually called my company by our reset in the very beginning. Oh, wow. Because we we're doing this fight or flight reset and kind of turning the computer off, resetting you to the factory default settings and turning it back on.

However, we eventually started finding that people would do better if we rebooted both rest and relax and fight or flight. And so then that's when we started doing that and I noticed people did so well. I realized I put growth factors around every nerve on the body. And so it kind of made sense to me what would happen if I started putting plasma and growth factors around the vagus nerve.

And sure enough, that is a way of not blocking it to get it better, but putting growth factors around it to get it better. And then almost a hundred percent of the time what I, what I people won't say is, oh, my voice starts to feel a little bit more rich. I start to feel a little bit of a vibration on my chest and people won't, will.

It's a fairly repeatable sense of wellness and calm. So it, I've heard of the, of the thing called the Stella ganglion nerve block before. Is this the same thing as that? I'll get into the weeds a little bit. The fight or flight nerves in the neck, in the middle of the neck, basically kind of between C4 and c6, tend to run in between the two deepest muscles in the front of the neck.

Those. Muscles. The superficial one is called longest capitus, and the deep one is called longest coli. The fight or flight nerves tend to run primarily in that plane at that level. However, they can also be a little bit in the muscles there, and then eventually they come down and run in the front of your vertebra.

In the thoracic area, when you stick a needle into that fascial plane, when you do a cell ganglion block, we block those nerves. Often when you stick a needle in that plane, the fluid will shoot over by the carotid artery and go, oh, wow, and kind of get the vegus nerve. What I started doing is intentionally going over there because it's, it's very safe for me.

When I create a fluid, I'm just sticking my needle, tracking my needle in the fluid, and then going over and putting it, okay. It's kind of in the corner pocket where the vegus nerve lives. Okay, and And you think, I mean, for people listening, they're like, whoa, needles in my neck. Like even. For me, as I was laying there for a brief second, I was like, wait, this is like, I felt really vulnerable.

And then you have this nice soothing approach where you kind of like talk me into a state of relaxation, but then also you don't feel. Anything like, honestly all I felt was it looked like your fingers were around my neck. Right. But I would say of, of things to do that's, that could be just about the most advanced procedure cuz I'm right next to your clotted artery.

Yeah. And I, I do, which I could see on the ultrasound by the way. I see like needle right there by pipe. Yeah. So I've don't sneeze Matt. I, I do five or six big procedures on the neck mm-hmm. Almost every day since like 2001. So it's something that I do a lot. We say we're, we're starting at a teaching organization to teach basically everything that we do hydro dissection from Okay.

Ground nerves, arteries, veins, every joint in the body, fascial planes. And, and it's a fairly substantial journey to get to a point where you feel comfortable knowing where a needle is to be able to do that. Yeah. Yeah. It's kinda like any surgery, you'd want somebody to do it who's done a lot of procedures before, especially when you're playing around in that area mm-hmm.

Where there's a lot of sensitive nerves mm-hmm. Vessels. Mm-hmm. So, This, this might seem like a far cry from regenerative medicine lower down, like in a joint, for example, and we might be kind of working backwards here, but do you actually combine this with, let's say, work on a knee or a hip or a shoulder?

Like is there any crossover effect into the joints? So the, the crossover is, what I'd like to do is get a sense of where are people in their pain cycle. So some people will come in and have been in long-term pain and their, their central nervous system and their spinal cord are sort of upregulated from a pain perspective.

Yeah. In those patients, they tend to do really well with a Stella Ganglion block. And so often what will happen is people will come and let's say they've got debilitating back pain and, and they've been in pain for quite a while. For those patients, often as part of their journey of three or four days, I'll do a St eight ganglion block on one side, on one day on the other side.

On another day, the right St eight gangling. Resets blood flow to the right side of the brain. Okay. And the, and the right vagus nerve comes from the right, basically side of your brain stem and goes through your liver and kind of the right side of your intestinal tract. And I, I just recently, a couple weeks ago, had a woman come in with that had abdominal pain.

Mm-hmm. And I did the st the stellate and she goes, oh, all the pain on the right side of my abdomen's gone, but the left side's still here, so then that's crazy. The next day we, we did the, the other side. And so then the left Vegas comes from the left brain stem. Yeah. On and so and so on. Yeah. Have you ever, I, I mentioned h but have you ever actually had anybody either in real time measure their heart rate variability or track their nervous system response in some quantified manner or afterwards track it and see it went up?

Oh, yeah. All the time. It al it almost always goes up. Okay. When, when you track it. Yeah. And what I tell people is, is that, Mindfulness and meditation are, and, and everything good that you've ever heard of that anybody has ever talked about on your podcast mm-hmm. Fundamentally, at some level, drives you into higher levels of heart rate variability.

Yeah. And all of those are techniques that drive you in so you can experience and sort of maintain a connected state that is a, quote unquote, a rest and relaxed state. Right. This is just one more tool that does, that will drive you into a rest and relaxed state. And I like to say that you, you leave some breadcrumbs along the way and the, and after having gone through the experience a lot of times then that just is a way for you to help, to reconnect and for some people just to realize it's possible to get into a kind of a deep, connected, calm, coherent.

State. Yeah. And then often once that happens, like I did a cell gangling block for somebody yesterday and I said, how's it going? And she goes, well, my fiance's flight was canceled and he couldn't show up here, but I was totally fine with it. Yeah. And so it was kind of stuff like that. You gotta change the name to call, like the zen injection or something like that.

The zen injection. That's what we're gonna call it from now on. Yeah. Yeah. I love it. Okay, so I mentioned that I was pretty hobbled up. I was actually. Almost not like depressed, but super disappointed. Like two years ago when I felt like I was getting old, like my knee, I couldn't play tennis. I hadn't yet discovered the sport of pickleball, but there's no way I would've been able to play that.

I couldn't run bike riding hurt, couldn't squat heavy, couldn't deadlift, couldn't lunge, and going up and downstairs hurt. And I went to like three different orthopods. They all told me that I was probably gonna have to get surgery, that I probably had arthritis, and that my knee was pretty much shot and that they might be able to scope it.

That might help, but no guarantees. And then I came down and saw you. You did some stuff on it, and then here I am like, you know, we're what, like 10 months out now? And I'm doing all, like, I'm running, I'm playing tennis, I'm playing pickleball, I'm squatting, I'm deadlifting, I'm going up and downstairs, basically my knee.

I can tell like something happened to it in the past, but it's not an issue at all. Walk people through like what you actually did. I'm gonna, I'm gonna do something even better. Okay. Hopefully what happened is, is in addition to that, Ben was a hardcore endurance athlete who was for a lot of years, competitor for a lot of years.

And so when I first met you at the very beginning, you had an effusion in that knee. Mm-hmm. And that knee, I explained if it wasn't effusions, so you had water on the knee. Okay. And so you, when I first met you, I pulled out 30 ccs of fluid. Mm-hmm. And so that. You. You had what's called synovitis, which was inflammation of the joint lining.

And as a result of that, you were just, and the body. The body, you damaged your meniscus a little bit and you damaged some of the ligaments in your knee a little bit. And so your body has this idea, I got a great idea. Let's put some more WD 40 in there. Mm-hmm. And so the body says that it starts to secrete some fluid and the knee is kind of a sealed joint.

Next thing you know, you got a little water on your knee, but you're tougher than the average bear. And you just kind of trained through that. Oh, I know. I trained through it. I raced through, like I did one Ironman triathlon in Hawaii. Where going into the race, my knee was like the size of a softball and I just taped the hell out of it and hammered on it for 12 hours.

There was like teeth gritting pain, like just on ibuprofen. I took a Valium that night and went to bed and I would do that kind of stuff like every few months. Right? So then you're gonna, you're gonna get some extra wear and tear and then when you put, when your body starts to make a lot of fluid in there, it starts to get inflammatory.

And so then that was going on. And when you do that, then you can cause. Damage and inflammation at every level. And so the title of our talk was Muscle Ligament. Tendon Fascia, yeah. Joint. But, and, and our, I changed to Young Muscle, we changed it to Young Muscles and Zen injections. Yeah, yeah. Injections. And so then you came in, in a super, super inflamed state.

You, you'd tore your M mc l all of the nerves around your knee were super painful. So your, your peral nerve was super painful. You had a a, a huge baker cyst. Mm-hmm. Which is fluid in the back of the knee. Mm-hmm. Bakers used to lean into the thing to pound the dough. And then they, that's what it's called it, that's why, and what happened is they would kind of tear their meniscus and then there's a little hole basically between their gas rack and their hamstring and fluid would pop out.

And so that would be case would happen way. I thought it was, cuz it looks like you have a cinnamon roll in the back of your knee after bakers almost like Mad Hatter's disease was because people used to dye the hats. Yeah. Okay. What happens is that when you're, when you run in real hard or take some trauma mm-hmm.

You can get inflammation in your bone marrow. And so you had a little, you had bone marrow edema, and so bone marrow edema is super, super painful. Which is why you were hobbling around in a lot of pain. Yeah. And you, you had a little bit of an osteochondral defect, which is basically. Where you've lost cartilage that is between the cartilage, basically between the cartilage and the bone.

Mm-hmm. And the reason for that is, is when you have edema in the bone marrow, then the bone marrow is what's giving all of the nutrition that leaks across the bone to support that cartilage. So then when you start, when you get inflammation in the bone marrow, then it can't make all the growth factors to keep everybody happy.

But thank God for c CRA and weed cuz I could still work out with the former and still sleep at night with the ladder. So I was pretty much good to go. Pretty much shut down pain. And, and the one thing that I would never take away from you is working out, cuz I don't know what, you just be bouncing off the walls.

So, so then what I did was I, and so then I'll, you know, there's a variety of ways to fix, fix bone marrow lesions. Probably the one that makes the most sense is to treat bone marrow with bone marrow. So we pulled some bone marrow to your hip and then spun a needle inside mm-hmm. The bone and put some bone marrow in there.

Was that the one that's called intraosseous needling? That's, that's where it's almost like, like aerating a lawn where you're like drilling holes into the bone. Yeah. Patching that up with bone marrow. And then the cartilage apparently regrows in response to that. Yeah. And your, your cartilage is, About 60%, 70% better, but it's not a hundred percent perfect.

Mm-hmm. There's a hint of an osteo osteochondral defect, but it's way better than it was. I treated all of the ligaments I hydro dissected, which is putting fluid around those nerves. I treated the joint, I pulled all the fluid out. Mm-hmm. Treated the joint. And I think that this is kind of a testament of one of those cases.

You know, a lot of times people come and you, you have these heroic experiences where somebody has some big problem and you kind of fix it in one time your knee was in super bad shape and things were not looking good. And then I did that and it was a slow recovery, and then I took you to Mexico twice and gave you stem cells.

And you've just doggedly kept at it. And today I treated you again. Treated a couple ligaments. Yeah. Treated the joint. I pulled all the fluid out of your bakers cyst. So now, now we're, we're gonna call you a baker. Mm-hmm. Baker Ben. Yeah. I pulled fluid out of the front of the joint. I said, I said, how much fluid am I gonna pull out?

And I, Ben goes, 35 ccs. And then I thought, and we were thinking about the over under on that, and then I, I thought, I'm not gonna take it over under, because he, it's, it's within like one cc. I don't know why I didn't. So I just didn't even say anything. And then it was literally 30 fives. You took a picture of it, didn't you?

I took picture. I'll put it in the show. People wanna see the nasty yellow fluid that you can pull out of a knee. And, you know, you, you talked about doggedly keeping at it. I should mention that at the same time that we were doing all of this, I met and interviewed Ben Patrick, the knees over toes guy. And I started doing knees over toes lunges.

I started doing reverse hyper extensions. I started doing a lot of clamshell and external rotator work. I started doing some of his like deep squats, but unloaded where your knees are actually going over your toe with the idea that despite it being general no in strength conditioning to squat and have your knees go forward of your toes.

Ben's theory is that by loading it in that manner, you're actually increasing blood flow, causing the cartilage to become loaded, triggering a regrowth response and actually increasing vascularization to the joint. So I got his cheapo little book on Amazon. He's got two on there. One called ATG for Life and one that's more of a knee book.

You could find him easily. Go listen to the podcast, a link to it in the show notes of ben greenfield life.com/young mussel. But I started doing his program. It's only, it only took like 10 to 15 minutes, and I usually did it in the sauna, like when my knees were pretty warm. Mm-hmm. You know, I, and most of it unloaded in the sauna and then occasionally I'd do a little bit loaded, like holding a couple kettlebells or whatever for some of the lunges.

And so I think that combined with the regenerative medicine protocols helped a ton. So this wasn't like me sitting in my butt in between stem cells and bone marrows and the other stuff you were doing. I think that the physical therapy is pretty important as well. Yeah. A hundred percent. A hundred. And you're, you're still doing the light.

The, you're, you're wrapping, you're wrapping it in light every day. Oh yeah. So what I do now, also, and this is like I do this for both knees cuz I just feel like when I do my morning workout, cause I usually work out like about eight 30 in the morning. Mm-hmm. And so I get up about four 30 or five and I roll over and grab these little, they're called kenon lights.

Mm-hmm. The Canon move Plus, and it's like this combination of l e D and laser. You wrap it around a joint and then you can just walk around the house making coffee or you know, doing whatever you're doing in the morning while it shines light for five minutes. And I usually will do it like 20 minutes.

I'll just press the button when it turns off and go for another five minutes. And that feels like it just kind of wakes up my knees for the morning. Yeah. And so I a hundred percent believe in that. I, I, I, I believe in the knees over to stuff and I believe in the, the, we talk about, you know, muscle, ligament, tendon, fascia, joint, all of that stuff where you're working, your muscles and fascia.

There's little nerves in your fascia. And so then when you start to get that healthy, then suddenly then the, that's all of the structures that support the knee. And what I've found is a lot of times what will happen is people will have pain or dysfunction of one or two muscles. So a classic thing in the for people is they'll have a tight, super tight VAs laterals.

Mm-hmm. And their IT bands in pain, and then their duct and their VAs medias is weak. Right. And so they get this outside tight, inside muscle outside tight, inside weak. And so then now they're, they're pulling their kneecap laterally. And when they pulled our kneecap laterally, now they've got a tracking problem.

Yeah. Which is, which is a problem. And you had that and I actually spun some bone marrow into your patella as well. Right. And that seems to be way better. And that's a big part of the knees over toes program too, is strengthening of the vases, medias everything from like flutter kicks where you have your VMO contracted to some of the inner thigh strengthening exercises.

And there's like this this step down that you do, I think he calls it like a Quin step down where your heels are down and your toes are up usually on like a slant board and you're stepping down off that slant board and you gotta use your VMO to get yourself back up. Oh. You know, the Charles Quin was like a really good friend of mine.

I knew that and forgot it. And now when I'm just now talking about Ben Patrick and Charles Pollock, when apparently Ben Patrick studied under. Paula Quinn and learned a lot of this knees over to stuff straight from Paula Quinn. Oh, really? Okay. Yeah. So that's a hundred percent. Yeah. Paul Charles, Paula Quinn is basically one of the greatest strength coaches to have ever lived.

And so then I would, yeah, I would, he would come here and then I would do stuff for him, and then he would just basically just tell me stories about the strength and conditioning world, and he would just talk for hours and hours. He was the most hilarious, greatest person I've ever met. Yeah, I recently did a podcast interview with another person who worked with him on foot proprioception.

Oh yeah. And treats everything from the ground up, like a lot of toast laying devices, these proprioceptive texture souls that you stand on. And then like different balls that you roll the feet with. Do you ever do feet mut with your patients? Tons. Like folks on the foot health tons. So then, so then, we'll same, same thing.

Ligament pen and fascia muscles. And so then for the foot, one thing is I'm looking at all the muscles, basically the, the, the extensors and the flexors. And so make checking out, are those muscles working, are they in pain? If they are, I may treat the central tendon. I may treat, I do a hydro dissection in between the muscles.

Mm-hmm. And then I may treat the nerves, and then I Oh, so you're actually doing injections into the feet? Oh, yeah. All the time. Right. And so, well, so then that, that's all basically in the calf. Mm-hmm. And, and often we are hydro dissecting inside the muscle, primarily with plasma. And plasma is basically what's in your blood, which is going to muscles.

And so then we will start to treat basically the central tendons, which is where a lot of the growth, where the nerves are. Mm-hmm. So we're treating the nerve that's basically going down to be around the tendon. Tendons hurt, cuz there's a lot of nerves. Then in the foot, basically what happens is, is there's a constellation of important ligaments that if they're partially torn, then we will treat those ligaments to build stability.

And then I will treat the, probably one of the main things that I do is treat foot pain. And so then just like you've got a carpal tunnel in your wrist. Yeah. You've got something called the tarsal tunnel in your foot, and then basically your tibial nerve goes down and it splits into three branches. One that goes back.

To the back of your foot called Baxter's, and then one that goes towards your big toe, which is called the medial plantar nerve, and then one that goes towards your little toe called the, the lateral plantar nerve. And then we do what's called hydro assu, where we'll put plasma or, or something anti-inflammatory around the nerves.

Mm-hmm. To treat nerve pick. Yeah. Yeah. And, and we did a whole podcast on hydro dissection too, where we got deep into the science of it. And I'll, I'll link to that if people wanna go listen to more about hydro dissection. But there's also like, You haven't talked about this much on a podcast. I know that you appreciate the importance of it, but that's the nutritional piece.

Like I, one of my friends was at my house last week and we were gonna do a breath work session in the sauna and she came down the stairs and she was like, hobbling it. She's going down the stairs. She's like, my achilles tendon is killing me. And she said that she had gluten at the dinner party that I threw the night before.

Cause she had stayed the night at my house. Mm-hmm. And she said that she was just like super swollen and inflamed from that and had a bunch of joint pain. And then you have guys like Tom Brady who are swearing by the No night Shades diet for long-term joint health for athletes. How often do you actually step back and look at a patient's diet when you're doing this kind of work?

All the time, and it's, it's interesting. We have a gluten sensitivity in our family, and because I've treated my mom so much with stem cells, she's the, basically the only person that hasn't had total joint replacements like everywhere. And so then it's, I think that it, it's going to be something