A Guest On Ben Greenfield's Podcast, Dr. Cook Speaks On The Future Of Cutting-Edge Regenerative Medicine Therapies & More

 On this episode of the Ben Greenfield Fitness Podcast, this is something amazing that's gonna happen. Science is gonna improve, and then it's not gonna be rich people. It's gonna be everybody that's gonna get access, that immune response if there was already something else going on. Okay. Can be more intense and you have all these other treatments, you know, we're fine.

Alpha one and monoclonal antibodies. And ivermectin again, like I still, maybe I'm not getting it, but why would we need to get vaccinated? Health performance, nutrition, longevity, ancestral living, biohacking, and much more. My name is Ben Greenfield. Welcome to the show.

This is a big deal. I have changed my mind about essential amino acids. That's right. You heard me forget everything I've ever told you about the so-called eaas. Okay. Maybe, maybe I'm being a little bit dramatic here, but now that I have your attention, there's actually some new information in the realm of essential amino acids that I'm pretty darn stoked to share with you.

Uh, my company, Keon, we recently embarked on a huge undertaking. We worked with a third party independent research firm. We conducted a meta-analysis of all the most recent amino research out there, and lo and behold, we learned a thing or two about our ratios of our amino acids, as well as the ratios of every single product out there.

And most of them, including ours, were not optimized. As good as they could be optimized. Now, I just released a banger of an article about all of this research, and you can go check that out in a link that I'll put in the show notes for this podcast. Gonna, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm gonna summarize it for you here.

Okay. There's an overwhelming body of research that pointed to one amino acid in particular for the incredible effect that it has on muscle protein synthesis, muscle repair, muscle recovery, and a whole heck of a lot more. And that amino acid is leucine. So that's the first thing that I did was I adjusted the leucine content.

I bumped up the dose of leucine, then I added histidine. Now histidine, the long-standing belief behind that is that your body could create histamine on its own in the presence of the other eaas, the other essential amino acids. Well, it turns out that idea was based on an outdated method of testing. And at Keon, we want to go for the best of the best and the most up-to-date stuff.

So when we looked at the new research, we used something called the tracer method, which observes amino acids directly inside muscle. And we now know that the manufacturing of histamine inside the body isn't as efficient as it was once thought, and isn't as efficient as the idea that most other supplement manufacturers are operating off of.

So, The, the last thing that we found in addition to adjusting our leucine and histidine content and ratios is that, as you may know, amino acid supplements aren't exactly well known to be tasty. They kind of fall into the same category as ketone esters and incredibly efficacious, not super tasty. So the key on aminos we had before kind of cracked the code on making them more delicious than the average amino acids.

But being the overachievers that we are, we actually went ahead and improved the flavors even more so our new cool lime and mixed berry powders. I, I've been internally testing them, I guess literally and, and figuratively, and they kicked the. But off of any amino I've ever tasted the flavor scientists at Keon, uh, they, they spent months tinkering with only the best natural ingredients.

We worked with some of the best formulators out there. We really kicked those flavors up a notch for the cool lime and the mixed berry. Not only that, but I've gotten some feedback from some people that the tablets we've been using kind of leave a chalky taste in people's mouths. So we figured out how to also encapsulate the tablets in a capsule, an easy to swallow capsule made of a hundred percent natural plant-based ingredients rather than the tablet.

Okay. So we just, the histidine, we just, the leucine, we made the flavor of cool alignment amino is way better and we change the tablet into a capsule and the all new Keon aminos, like I've been experimenting with these new ratios. You thought the other ams were good, these things are even better. And nobody else in the industry has even touched what we've done as far as the ratios and the flavor.

So if you haven't yet tried essential amino acids, if you're already using them, but you want the new upgraded version that we're doing at Keon, uh, you're gonna love this new formula. So you can get them@getkeon.com slash ben Greenfield. That's get K i o n.com/ben Greenfield. So check these new Bad Boys out.

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Matt, how's, how's it feel to be back on the show? Dude, it feels amazing. You, you don't even know. You don't even know how excited I am. A cuz we get to record today's podcast, walking in the beautiful Bay area, sunshine, and, I don't know, what are we? Los Los Gatos Trail. Los Gatos. We're in the Los Gatos Creek Trail.

Does that mean the cat? Yeah, the Cats ahha. Nailed it. Mountain Lion. That's right. Everybody had no clue. I speak French, but now they know the Los Gatos trail. And, um, we, Matt, Matt, if, if you're not familiar with Matt and Matt, you're, you're gonna have to just bl here for a moment. Will I talk about who you are?

Um, Matt's been on the podcast five times before. Uh, he's a regenerative medicine physician who I hooked up with like four years ago when somebody had introduced us. We wound up at a dinner together and, uh, as a matter of fact, what we talked about most of the time during dinner was ketamine, which is like a super hot topic now, and everybody's in the ketamine.

But I was so intrigued and we had so many other things we wanted to talk about. I wound up just like randomly going to your office. I happened to have my mics with me cuz I was in town. Anyways, she records some podcasts. I brought my mics. We report, recorded a podcast. You gave me a ketamine infusion, which was interesting cause I'd never experienced that particular, uh, uh, drug I guess before.

And then since then, we have done, and I'll, I'll link to all this stuff in the show notes. If you guys go to ben greenfield fitness.com/cook, that's Matt's last name. If you go to ben greenfield fitness.com/cook, then I'll put all the show notes there. Uh, for today's episode as well as links to all the other episodes I've done with Matt.

Cause we've done episodes on ketamine, we've done episodes on regenerative medicine, plasmapheresis, young blood exchange. Like we, we've talked about a lot of stuff. Matter of fact, I think we should end this podcast right now cause we have nothing left tos talk about Right. Easy. That makes today easy.

Yeah. And uh, so I, I happen to be in San Jose, uh, and you'll know why here shortly I'll explain it to you guys, but Matt and I have had a good time. Matt played tennis for the first time in 20 years. Yesterday. Yeah. I've won, almost won two games, but I did win one. Mm-hmm. Yes. Yep. And, uh, and, and so we've been playing tennis.

We've been cooking up buffalo bison yak. We made some rocky mountain oysters last night, which are, for those of you I'm familiar with the term testicles, uh, dredge those in in egg. We dredged our testicles. If no one has dredged their testicles before you, you must experience a good testicle dredging. So we did that.

Uh, with, with like some coconut flour and some egg and some olive oil, we had lobster tacos. So we basically spend most of our time geeking out, enjoying the sunshine and cooking amazing food, so, which was super awesome. Thank you. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And, um, and so Matt's clinic here is called Biore Reset Medical.

It's in, uh, uh, near San Jose. I guess, what, what town are you technically in? Campbell. Campbell, yeah. So Campbell down here in the Bay Area, people fly in from all the world to see Matt and get treatments done by him, and that's actually one of the reasons I'm here. So, Matt, do you want me to lay out the history for you of Yeah, tell me of why I'm here.

Okay. So this will be really interesting for, for everybody listening in. So like, uh, Uh, six years ago, five or six years ago, I was teaching at a yoga retreat. And no, I was not the guy in the stretchy pants taking people through down dog. I was there at this retreat. It was actually one of the early, early room go retreats, which still exists this day.

There's actually one coming up in Austin, Texas pretty soon. Uh, and so at this room retreat, you do like kettle bells and ice baths and yoga and meditation and, and I was there to do like nutritional consulting with people. Do q and as. Kinda like be the guy on staff who people could just like, like have a round during the entire event, ask questions to, and two nights in I got stung by a scorpion in the middle of the night.

Literally like felt the, felt the sting saw the scorpion scuttle into the corner of the room. I wound up killing it later with a glass mason jar. I caught it and, and beheaded it. So I got my revenge. It was a tiny little scorpion, which are. Kind of some of the more dangerous variety from what I understand.

And, um, this, this retreat had me all the way up on top of like a, like a cottage at the top of a hill, super far away, like a half mile, not super far, but far enough to where if you're stung and you need medical assistance, it was a little difficult. I had no radio, I had no cell phone reception, nobody to talk to.

So I laid there r in pain for like two hours feeling and watching my knee swell up basically almost to the size of like a volleyball. And I had no first aid anything with me. So I eventually just at about 5:00 AM crawled down to the main resort area and there was like a medicine woman there and she had.

Uh, fig poultice. She had some essential oils. I believe she had frankincense was one thing that she used as a topical. Kind of nursed my knee for a little while, but the next five days I was, I was just hobbling. I was useless. I was pissed cuz I couldn't surf and take part in, in some of the more vigorous activities at the resort.

And ever since then, that knee has been super buggy. It's as though some of the muscles got deactivated and quit protecting and supporting the cartilage in the knee the way that they were supposed to. And, and the knee just got progressively like low, low level pain all the time. Like a three on a scale of one to 10, you know, playing tennis, cutting, you know, playing noon basketball, whatever.

There's like, there was always, and especially during like Spartan racing and triathlon, just like that low level bearable, but back of the mind kind of pain. And then what happened was, uh, I saw you, Matt, and we talked about some of the cool protocols that you do like placental matrix and like ozone and a lot of these regenerative medicine therapies that we've done previous podcasts on.

And you would, you would do injections on it occasionally, and the pay wouldn't subside for a while, but then kind of come back. It was like a temporary fix. And so then what happened was I decided to get stem cells injected into the knee about three months ago. So I went to a, to a regenerative medicine doc, not you, but a, a a, a different person who, uh, who was nearer to nearer to my hometown cuz I didn't have time to get down to San Jose.

And the knee was really starting to bug me. So I got these stem cells injection in my knee. And the doc also did kinda like everything in the kitchen sink, right? He used placental matrix. He used ozone and he used exosomes, you know, all, all kind of like darlings of the regenerative medicine industry and.

Literally by that night, the knee was swollen back, like as big as it had been, swollen with that scorpion sting, massive swelling, inflammation, redness. And it, it, it was so concerning that I'm like, okay, I need to get an MRI on my knee. I actually called you and you, you helped me schedule an mri. So I went and got an MRI and I had to, like, I went to one hospital, they took three hours of me laying inside that MRI tube.

And for anybody who's never got an MRI before, you're literally just inside a tube with this loud hammering, you know, there's no phone, there's no tv. It just, it was like laying there and they kept trying over and over again to get pictures and they couldn't. Eventually they came in and they apologized.

They gave me a $10 gift card to Red Robin, which is fantastic cuz everybody knows how much I love cheesy girly fries or I don't even know what you get at Red Robin. But anyways, so. I, I got my, my gift card and they rescheduled me for a second mri. I went to another hospital, different MRI machine cuz they thought maybe it was their machine.

Same thing. It was something about the swelling or the oddness of that knee. They couldn't, couldn't get good pictures. They finally, Got, got images of the knee and those images indicated of course, no surprises here. Massive swelling, effusion, what's called a baker cyst in the back of the knee. Um, explain to people what a baker cyst is real quick, Matt.

So if the knee joint starts to get really inflamed, then there's a potential space between the hamstring muscle and the calf muscle and fluid can leak back. And so basically fluid leaks into the back of the knee. And if you kind of imagine what a baker used to do, they would lean into where they a big, uh, bull and then throw their hands in to do the dough.

Yeah. And they would hyperextend their knees. And so they were famous for having fluid leak out the back. Oh my gosh. Because of that, I didn't know that. Unusual. I thought it was named after the Dr. Baker, Dr. Tommy John surgery or something. Yeah. No. Okay, so it's, it was actually baker's and so you get this, this pocket of swelling?

Yeah. Like in the back of the knee. It's like a palpable swelling. And, and even after those, in the past three months, I've had that cyst and the knee drained three separate times and literally pulled 60 to 90 ccs of fluid out of my knee, like nasty yellow fluid. And, uh, this MRI showed, not only was that occurring, but it showed, uh, degeneration of the cartilage on the back of my patella and degeneration on the surface of my femur, probably because I'd just been using my knee so funny for like five years that it had really taken a beating in a way.

It wasn't really, uh, intended to take or in a pattern it wasn't intended to take. So anyways, I talked to Matt and he said, alright, I got some, I got some cutting edge shit we can throw at this. Let's, let's go ahead and tackle this thing once and for all. So now I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna shut up now that I've, I've given you guys the history and by the way, today's podcast, Matt and I decided we don't only wanna talk to you about the latest, kinda like regenerative joint therapies cuz there's some really cool, minimally invasive stuff you can do now.

But Matt's got some super interesting and surprising takes on covid and vaccination and we're gonna talk about those too. So, so sit tight cuz that's coming up also. But anyways, so I, um, I flew down here and uh, my first question for you Matt, is why the heck do you think my knee, after all those cool cutting edge things got injected into it got worse and not better?

What's, what's, what's the mechanism? Cause this will be in for based who's considering stem cells. So then this is an interesting one that I've discovered, which is, is that when you throw several techniques that all have a regenerative and healing potential, the synergy of them sometimes can be a little too much and you can get swelling.

And the other doctor I have kind of infinite respect for and is amazing. So, but sometimes people can have a very exaggerated response. And the interesting thing is you've had a moderate amount of inflammation in that joint for quite a while, you think. And so then you kind of got a little bit unlucky by creating this super crazy immune response.

And interestingly, because you've had real long-term inflammation in the joint and it's kinda like, it is interesting to hear the story because, you know, I, I injected you with placental matrix, which was a pretty simple. Five minute procedure that I've done a couple times that's that's literally derived from a placenta.

Yeah. Yeah. And so then that's a, uh, that's a, a very safe and easy and very anti-inflammatory procedure. But I think when I did that before, it only lasted a month or two. Yeah. Yeah. Everything worked but works temporarily and that's cuz that joint was, was so profoundly inflamed. But then the other problem is, is that you have edema in your bone marrow and if your bone marrow hurts, your knee's gonna hurt and sticking something into the knee joint is not gonna heal that bone marrow cuz the bone marrow is on the other side of the bone.

Does that make sense? It makes total sense. But why would the knee have acted like it got hit by a semi-truck when you'd think stem cells and exosomes and ozone and placental matrix all at once would just be like a miracle infusion cocktail into the knee. You would think that, but it tr often if the joints are already inflamed, it's kind of.

Part of the way that all of these things do, their healing is by creating a little bit of inflammation. And that inflammation creates a healing response. And so if you combine four things that all have a little potential for inflammation and then you add them all up together, one plus one plus one plus one might be 10.

And in the setting of a joint that's already inflamed. And interestingly, you know, the whole scorpion thing's. Interesting. You know this, this has been long term inflamed. So you were set up for a exaggerated immune response. Mm-hmm. And then now what we have to do is calm that down. And so then interestingly what we did is normally we don't inject a lot of steroids.

Mm-hmm. But I had them inject some steroids. That's right. So three weeks ago I went in for a corticosteroid injection into the knee, which was probably the first time in years that for a few days I had almost no pain. And the swelling, which came back a few days later, not quite as bad, but the swelling subsided after that steroid injection.

And that's because of the anti-inflammatory activity of the steroids. Right? Right. And so then this is, I'm gonna telegraph later in our conversation, but so then steroids turn inflammation down and so then that they can turn inflammation down in a setting of covid or in a setting of an exaggerated immune response in a joint.

Okay. So pretty much any inflammatory condition steroids can help out with that. But are, are there, are there downsides to just using that as a long-term strategy? Like every time something starts to hurt, just get injected with steroids? Yeah. Let's say you're, you're like an athlete, you know, playing through your season.

Steroids are hard on connective tissue. And so then, like for example, even in my literature in the anesthesia literature, steroids can be helpful for back pain, but a lot of times, Couple years later, people are worse. So they're a bandaid and a bandaid that we love to use in certain situations, but not all the time.

Okay. Alright, so. Now I, I come here and you're like, we have this brand new protocol, which is really interesting because three days ago, the Wall Street Journal published an article about all sorts of new cutting edge, minimally invasive protocols that are allowing people to get remarkable joint healing without an invasive surgery.

Now that article, which I'll link to in the show notes, if you go to ben greenfield fitness.com/cook, it included, talk about a couple of drugs that are currently, I think, under trials that show great promise. I, I forget the, the names of these. Do you recall those two drugs? So, so then what? These are basically early drugs that are gonna help promote cartilage cells and help adhesion of cartilage cells so that they can stick together and, and create a more functional joint.

Essentially. Okay. Alright. Got it. But then the article went on to describe almost like this concept that you can, and you might be able to, to describe the protocol, but I'll, I'll give kinda the preview of the way I understand it. It's called like an intra osseous procedure where they drill little holes in the surface of the cartilage and then put something in those holes that patches it up, almost like fertilizing a lawn to induce new cartilage growth.

That's kinda like the basic idea I got from the Wall Street Journal article. Is that right? Right. And so, so then there, there's, there's two components to this. One is, What's called micro fracture, and then one is an intra osseous procedure. Micro fracture is something that orthopedic surgeons do, and I used to do anesthesia for this all the time.

And so then with that, they stick scopes in a knee and then they look and they see a defect in the cartilage, and then they. Take an instrument and then they poke holes. And when they poke holes, they poke holes from the joint into the bone marrow. And the bone marrow is in the middle of the bone basically.

And then when they do that, you see bone marrow leak into the joint and their goal is to start to heal and let that bone marrow start to come. And the bone, the bone marrow is not like bone marrow, they're getting from somewhere else. It's just leaking from right there in the joint as a response to the micro fracturing.

Right. And the goal of that is to start to heal that defect in the cartilage. If that doesn't work, then they try to do something called an oats procedure where they'll put a little graft to fix that cartilage defect. What we're gonna do is we're actually gonna stick a needle into the back of your hip.

Uh, into Aurelia Crest and we're gonna pull some bone marrow out and then we're gonna spin a needle into your bone marrow and then inject that bone marrow to try to heal. Because right now you've got, uh, inflamed bone marrow edema situation going on in your femur. And what's happening with that is that's causing a lot of, uh, pain and dysfunction.

And then that's, that inflammation and lack of the bone marrow serves as like a nutrition source for the cartilage. Mm-hmm. So we're hoping that by doing this, and this is probably the first in a series of several steps to try to, uh, create a healthy bone marrow and then start to rebuild cartilage there.

Now for someone listening in who hears about all these needles and everything, I called this minimally invasive. Now talk to me about like, how big, like are you making incisions? Are you using like ultrasound, you know, like digital imaging to guide the needles into where you want them to drill the little holes and inject the bone marrow?

Or how's this working from an invasiveness standpoint? So there's, there's two ways to go. One is more invasive and one's more minimally invasive. And so we're gonna start with more minimally invasive, just to see how you do the minimally invasive thing that I'm gonna do is I'm gonna, Spin a needle into the bone marrow in the hip, and that's just a relatively small needle.

And so then that's gonna be very comfortable for you. I'm gonna pull some bone marrow out. That sounds, it sounds comfortable spinning a needle into my hip. Well, you're gonna be under the influence of Ed Ketamine and nitrous oxide. What's ed? Ed's a benzo, benzodiazepine. It's kind of, uh, kind of similar to Valium and it's a very incredible anti-anxiety medication that I used every day for 12 years in the operat.

15 years in the operating room. All right. So, so if we play, like, uh, if we play, uh, uh, uh, you know, like Trivial Pursuit after this protocol, I'm gonna be a little bit useless probably. Okay. But, but it sounds to me like in terms of, I. Compared to, let's say, a scoping or like a, you know, like a resurfacing.

This is, this is incredibly less invasive, right? And so then what I'm gonna do is we're gonna look and we're gonna find a spot where we can spin a, uh, needle into the bone marrow of the knee. And we're gonna spin right by where your, um, bone mar edema is, and by that defect. And then we're gonna inject bone marrow from the hip to heal the bone marrow in the knee.

Now, let's say somebody's listening, they got elbow issues, knee issues, joint issues, et cetera. And they're like that, that sounds dope. I would, I would rather try that before surgery. Is this a common protocol? Like are there doctors now that, that do this? Or how, how new is this type of thing? There's a lot of people that are starting to do this and I think doing a, a great job with it.

And so there's people all over the country that are doing this. Um, the question for them is gonna be, do I ha do you have inflammation in your bone marrow or do you just have a problem with your joint or do you have a problem with some of the nerves and arteries going to the joint or the fascia? So then basically what you're gonna wanna do is have somebody look and try to figure all of that out.

And would that be an MRI or would that be an ultrasound or how, how, when you say have somebody look, how, how, what do you think is the gold standard way to look for something like that? So the gold, the, the only good way to look for bone marrow edema is with an mri. And then the best way to look at everything else is with ultrasound.

Okay. And that's a lot of what you do in your office. We've talked in the past about, Speaking of the nerves, another really cool protocol you do. And I've literally seen people sit up from your procedure table who have had like tennis elbow for years, or golfer's elbow or chronic issues that they thought were related to joint degradation.

And with that nerve hydro dissection, uh, which we have a whole podcast on, I, we won't, we don't get into it now cause we've literally talked for like an hour and a half about that before. Sit up and feel like, like I, I saw one guy sit up and start crying on your table. Cause we were just like gone. Now question for you compared to your, your left knee or your, your right knee.

Do you feel like you don't activate your V m O as much on the affected side? Well, that's the thing. Um, you know, Ben Patrick, very popular, uh, guy right now in the fitness industry has a program called Knees over Toes, right? To strengthen the, the VM o, the tibials, uh, and, uh, some of the toe muscles.

Fantastic program that gets really great results in people who have a lot of muscle deactivation due to poor biomechanics or muscle D training. You know, I, I have a master's degree in biomechanics. I've worked with a ton of people specifically to strengthen areas around their particular joints. I have paid extreme, like for the past five years, particularly my VMO training, my utilization, even in the past few months of Ben Patrick's Knee Over TOES program, my use of electrical muscle stimulation to keep stabilizing musculature like the V M O activated has been honestly, Probably about the level of what I'd be doing if I were working with a physical therapist.

In addition to that, tons of deep tissue work, it band work, like really keeping the fascia nice and supple using lots of traditional anti-inflammatories. You know, Turo, saccharide and all that stuff helps. But it's one of those things where at the end of the day, and I'm sure other people have experienced this, you know, there's something deeper going on that that stuff seems like it's helping and that the problem would be a lot worse without.

But that still isn't providing like lasting relief. Does that make sense? Yeah. So then we, there's a, I'm gonna examine you and look at the femoral and saphenous nerves and operator nerves, and there's a chance I may do a little bit of hydrocision with this procedure. Mm-hmm. And so then step two would be potentially to do a bigger procedure where you stick a needle into the hip, pull out a little bone dowel.

And then spin a needle into the knee and then stick that bone dowel in and that bone dowel becomes a graft that good bone marrow can grow on. Mm-hmm. But I think that's a little bit bigger of a procedure. And if, is that some of like the expanded stem cell procedures that the They do. Is that something totally different?

Cuz I know in Mexico you've done like expanded stem cells before. Right. So then the, the, so this, these are just treatments that are taking bone marrow from the hip into the bone marrow and the need to fix it. The other thing you can do, and I've done with quite a bit of good result is to take, uh, P R P, which is just platelet rich plasma that you got from the blood.

Yes. And you can spin a needle into bone marrow and P R P can be quite effective for bone marrow edema. By comparison, what happens with stem cells? Most stem cells that people in all stem cells that you can get in the United States are just basically some stem cells that were harvested when somebody had a baby from around the umbilical cord.

For the most part, those have some potential. The downside that would be like non autologous, umbilical, amniotic, yes. Uh, placental, uh, jelly, et cetera. Yeah. The other thing that you can do is you can actually take. Uh, culture expanded stem cells. These are stem cells that are grown in a lab and so they're very healthy, they have a little bit more regenerative potential, and then you can put them in the joint.

The only thing is just like what happened with your stem cells in your knee, they can cause quite an inflammatory response. And so that's on my roadmap for you because this is gonna be a pretty substantial problem. And so I think I'm gonna treat it again, but, um, I wanna make sure that the knee really calms down before I do that.

And it's not an, an exaggerated inflammatory response, and it's illegal to really like expand stem cells in the US So a lot of those protocols need to be done internationally. Right. Exactly. That's why we take people to Mexico. Mexico, you, you, you, as part of your practice have like a setup in Mexico and you take people down there who want to get like the full on expanded stem cell treatment, right?

Yeah. We do that all the time. Okay. Interesting. All right, here we go. Free ground beef for life. For life. ButcherBox, just let me know that they are now doing two pounds of grassfed, grass-finished beef, that that's all, uh, harvested with a great deal of care by them about the lives of the animals, the livelihood of farmers.

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