A Podcast with Andrew Skotzko: Beating Trauma, Identity Shifts & Continually Recreating Who You Are

 The anesthesiologist who was influential to me when I was young said, what you have to do is internalize all of the chaos in the room, and then project call. You're listening to a Bio Reset medical podcast with Dr. Cook. If you have questions or wanna talk more about your symptoms and issues, you can always reach us at 6 5 0 8 8 8 7 9 5 0.

The following is a discussion with Andrew Scottsdale from the Aliven Podcast. Matt, welcome to the show. Thanks so much for being here today. How are you? I'm doing wonderful. I'm delighted to be here. Thanks. One of the things that, uh, I thought would be an interesting way to start this off is I, a way I heard you describe a big shift in your life, which is that, you know, as, as a doctor, you spent the first, you know, significant chunk of your career.

You used to knock people out, but now you wake 'em up. Tell me what that means to you. My first half of my career, I, I was an anesthesia. I am an anesthesiologist, and so what I would do is I would basically knock people out a hundred percent by giving them general anesthesia or else I would do nerve blocks and then give them sedation and then guide them through surgeries.

And so we were, that was basically what I did. And then now, uh, I'm using the same techniques that come from the anesthesia world to try to physiologically turn people's brains on and, and, and, uh, reset the body, which is why my company's called Biore Reset. How did that shift happen for you? Like, what was, was there a, a triggering event for you that, like, what caused you to make that shift in your own life?

I had always wanted to do integrative medicine, and yet you go, um, you go to, uh, medical, medical school and it's a gigantic institution. And so then you're, you're, you sort of go onto different services and each service has an identity and kind of a consciousness to it. Okay? And so, um, and, and it's you, when you go onto a service, you'll, you'll show up and so you show up in surgery and so there.

All kind of crazy and super hardworking and wonderful, but, and so then you'll, you relate to them and you're like, oh, I don't think I wanna be like this. Cause it's just, and so then you to family medicine, you relate to them and you go to psychiatry. So you're floating around. And when I got, and I, I was, I had the over my eyes a little bit because I went into anesthesia.

Mm-hmm. And they were by far the coolest people in the hospital. And so just, just for context, like where lo how many locate is this in time? Like is this, when you're in med school, is this after med school? Like where are we? This is when I'm in, in medical school. I'm in med. So this is 1997. 6 97. Okay. So you're in the middle of med med school.

I'm in the middle of med school and it's, it's, um, the anesthesiologists are like lights out, the coolest, nicest people, and they seem totally calm. Okay. And so, and I was thinking, and, and so I'm thinking, hey, uh, these guys are like, by far what seem like super happy, wonderful people. They're my people. And so then I'm gonna evolve into being super calm, like them.

And what I found out is, is that basically it's just a total facade because inside it's like, You're, you're dealing with, uh, uh, this, this anesthesiologist who was influential to me when I was young, uh, named Peter said, what you have to do is, uh, internalize all of the chaos in the room and then project calm.

Okay. So then like, whether, whether it's with the patient or whether it was the surgeon or the nurses, all of that is, and so we're, we sort of orchestrated, um, the environment, it would make everything okay. And so part of that is being a psychiatrist for them a little bit. Part of that is just guiding and being supportive and wise and thoughtful.

And so it's, and so next thing I know I'm doing anesthesia and it's like this is super dangerous. And, and so I was sort of wishing that I had done. I had gone deeper into the integrated medicine. I was like, God, I made a mistake, but I was getting amazing at procedural skills and injection. So I'm, and, but I realized I wanted to really have that deep dive into integrated medicine.

So I started, I started like the month I got out of residency, I started studying. And so I studied acupuncture and I studied Chinese medicine and I studied Ayurveda and I studied yoga and tahi and all of this stuff and ended up getting a doctorate in medical Qigong. And so I thought I was gonna, at some point exit anesthesia and b like kinda a.

Integrative Andrew, we type of character. So wait, really quick, just for anyone who's not familiar with that term, what does integrative medicine mean? Like what is, if I put little air quotes around that, uh, that's a great, that, that's a great question because I think it means very different things to different people, but I think it's, um, incorporating some of the best techniques of western medicine and, and then, and amalgamation of good ideas that come from many of those other places.

I discussed Chinese medicine, Ayurveda, um, there's a lot of wisdom in, in naturopathy, uh, and homeopathy. So there are integrative strategies. Try to put together the best, the best of both of those. Best of east. A lot of, in a lot of ways, what that's saying or what you're doing when you take that approach is you're just being like the ultimate learner and you're just looking at any anywhere, right?

You'll go to anywhere for what will work, what will help patients, and you're willing to sort of figure out how to integrate it all together to make a difference. Yeah. That's really, really good. Yeah. That's great. Yeah, it's so, it's so interesting cuz like, one of the things that surprised me in a really pleasant way as I was getting ready for this conversation, you know, I, I didn't, I didn't realize that you had done so much work in the world of like pro sports, you know, all the work you did with the nationals, for example.

Maybe you can talk about that. But the reason I thought it was especially interesting is that, um, you know, I would not have assumed an anesthesiologist would've spent so much time thinking about movement, for example. And I just thought it was interesting how you've gone far afield and you've like turned, you've left the, the do the, the boundaries of the, of your chosen domain, so to speak, in order to find these things out.

And I'm curious, like, how do you approach that? How do you approach that as a learner, like going outside your discipline to find the answers in spaces where you don't know the, you don't know what's going on. It's a self research, it's a self-funded research project mm-hmm. That has basically been trying to solve my own problems.

Okay, say more about that. So then what happened is I was, um, and so then as, as my early bid kind of 1.0 of kind of, uh, evolving away from anesthesia, cuz I felt immediately like, uh oh, I'm just facilitating surgeries that I kind of don't always believe in. Yeah. And so, so then we were doing yoga and, and tai chi and all of these things and, and once you start to do that, then we started setting kinetic chains and how forest moves through the body.

And, and then once you started to do that, then I started this deep dive into looking at musculoskeletal physiology because we were basically trying to, uh, fix problems. And if you could fix, like I had some back stuff and I had some knee stuff and I had shoulder stuff, neck stuff. Sure. So all those from playing sport, grab bag of pain.

I grabbed bag of pain, and so then I was, and so I, you wouldn't believe how many things. So we went into, um, you know, I, I studied, uh, Indian clubs. We were doing strength training. So we were doing all this stuff and, uh, and it in an effort to kind of improve how force flows through the body. Mm-hmm. Ok. And then once you can have it start to flow more efficiently and functionally through the body, uh, those are the same goals that you would have, whether you're a Tai Chi expert or a pro athlete or a weekend warrior.

We're just trying to get, force an energy to flow efficiently through the body. So then, um, I, I happened to go to a meeting where people were teaching hydro dissection, which is this technique where you put fluid around nerves and do Okay injections, uh, to fix pain. And so, I showed up there and then I called my friend Barb, and I was like, you're not gonna believe it.

I found out what I'm gonna do for the rest of my life. Cause I, and, cause I had been doing ultrasound guided injections all day, every day for like 10 years. Okay. And so then I came, I went to a meeting, I was like, oh, I know more than everybody here about this. Like, this is what we're gonna do and then we're just gonna wrap functional medicine around a, uh, a physiological approach to the body.

So then that's, that's basically what I've done. Is there a difference between functional medicine and integrative medicine? There's just massive overlap. And so functional medicine is a, is a. Term that is used for a thoughtful approach to, um, talking to people, gathering kind of a, a real nice, uh, robust history, and then doing a whole bunch of testing.

So for example, like what we were talking about on the phone, Hmm. Testing your vitamin D level, testing, testing a whole bunch of things, and then putting all of that together and correlating it with the symptoms, and then creating treatment algorithms to support people. And many of those treatment algorithms can be integrative, but then many of those are just straight normal Western medicine approaches.

Yeah. That's so interesting. Yeah. I think the way you explained it to me, or that I've heard you explain it before was it's kinda like being a McKinsey consultant as opposed to like just a specialist, right? You're kind of taking this systems level view and integrating across various subsystems in the body to just solve the problem, uh, you know, as opposed to saying, Nope, I just deal with, you know, knees.

Exactly. Exactly. And that, that is how great organizations are doing things in the world right now. Um, taking a systems approach, uh, that's the, the best when medicine's at its best, it takes, takes a systems approach. The systems type approach to solving problems in any domain, whether that's business or medicine or just life is very appealing, right?

It, it seems sort of intuitively appealing, but a lot of people don't know how to do it. So I'm curious if you could tell, tell me a story or tell me about a time when you coached, let's say you had a doctor who was coming from more, a more traditional approach to medicine, more of a siloed type approach.

How do you co, how have you coached that type of person to learn to see and think sort of systemically the way you're describing? Oh, that's a good one. That's a good one. That's basically, I spent like two hours talking to people yesterday trying to figure out how I could do that better. Part of that is giving people really good protocols because then it, because everybody's sort of, it's interesting, everybody wants a protocol, which is the opposite of systems thinking, right?

Cuz a protocol in this sense is like, just tell me what to do, right? Just tell me what to do. Just tell me what to do so I don't have to think about it so I don't have to think about it. And so then people really want that. Doctors want that, patients want that and just tell me what to do and then I'm gonna do it.

And yet, uh, we're trying to constantly new and, and think broader and, and in bigger terms. And, and so, uh, and then so, and so a lot of the, a lot of what I do is I just basically, I'll do it for people. People will come and I'll, I'll talk them through, we'll, we'll do cases and then we'll go back into another room and talk about it.

And I'll be like, well, what did you think about that? And it's a, and, and medicine and. Medicine is an art. And then when, and if you go back to when I first did this, it's like, it's a very collaborative kind of interesting experience when you're in systems because it'd be like we would sit down in a small group of five or six people and then work our way through this case of this 75 year old lady that comes in with ammonia, let's say.

And that would be different today than if it was back then. And, and so then you're, you're constantly evolving and sort of socializing between everybody who's working on it. And that's, that's interestingly how medicine in the best of times happens because, for example, in like in there's grand rounds or, uh, a tumor board, when there's really complex patients.

And so then a group of people will sit and kind of process that together. And, uh, I think when I'm at my best, I'm talking to a bunch of people with different areas of domain knowledge and then putting that together in, in, in, uh, the most logical way. And, and, and thoughtful, thoughtful way. Yeah. It seems like one of your real strengths, just as I've listened to you on other, other interviews you've done and, and watched some talks you've given, it seems like you have a real strength for, uh, I'll say synthesizing.

So like synthesizing large swaths of disparate material in into like distilling it down into like a cogent coherent hole and putting handles on it so that people can actually get it, grab it and do something with it. Oh, thank you. That's like the only thing that I wanna do in my life, actually. It's like, well, you're doing a good job.

So there you go. So I, you know, I really, it's curious, I wanna go back to a, a point in time. So you described to, uh, just a few minutes ago, you were saying something that, like right after you finished your residency right, and you're, you're kind of getting into the world of anesthesia and you have this like, oh shit moment where you're like, uhoh, I, I'm in the wrong game.

And I'm curious like that, that's such, those moments are so scary, but they're also so transformative and like, those are real watershed moments in our life. And I'm curious if you could just talk to me a little bit about how you navigated that. Right. We were talking right before we hit record about the idea of creating your life and the fact that it's sort of this, oh yeah, this, this active choice.

And I, I'd love to hear about how you approach that because that's, that type of moment happens to everybody and it's scary. Okay. So then I'll actually take you back a little bit before that. Okay. To the time when I was gonna go into medicine. If you look at any kid right now that's a senior in college or they're pre-med, uh, what you want is you wanna make a contribution, contribution to mankind and do something great.

You would, and you'd like to do some research, you wanna have a clinical experience where you take care of patients because taking care of patients is like this, the most gratifying part of it. And so you wanna put, but you wanna, you wanna basically construct all of that together and that is the ultimate dream of being a doctor.

Oh. And you, and then you wanna teach. Mm-hmm. So fundamentally, and so then at, at academic centers, you see these guys that are like these, they teach. Couple days a week, they've got a clinic one or two days a week, and then they're, they're in a lab doing research. And so then these are the great and profound teachers that are impacting mankind.

And it's like the, the ultimate dream of being a physician Uhhuh. So I wanted to do that with my whole Arkansas. And, but then I thought, I said to myself, rather than go down the academic road, I'm gonna do a, the, the clinical private practice where I, and you make more money there. And so that was part of the appeal.

And I said, then what I'll do is I will, I'll have more flexibility to control and navigate what I do, and then I'm gonna figure out how to do research and teach and, and then have the ultimate dream of being a doctor that does everything and then make a meaningful impact. I love it. Then fast forward after a couple years and I'm working in the surgery center and I realized that I'm in a role and I'm trapped in the role and it doesn't seem like there's a way to get out and every year that it, you go, it seems harder and harder to get out, and then you get dependent on a lifestyle and so then I, I felt like six or seven years ago, the probability that I was gonna make it out was like, 10%.

And I, and I was like, and I remember, uh, this friend of mine, uh, whose surgery center I, here's this guy Sharam, who I love, uh, uh, I was working at his surgery center and, and he said, here's the thing, just do this thing that you're gonna do and then keep coming to the, and you can do my cases and do, do half the cases to the surgery center and then get your new business going, and then it'll be great.

And then, uh, once you get that going, I go, Sharam, I go, I'm either gonna die or I'm gonna do this and there's nothing in between. And that was great. He looked at me just like you, and then he goes, okay, okay. There's, there's nothing else to say. And so, and, but I was doing, I was doing the integrative medicine and, and uh, America wasn't really ready for integrative medicine at that time.

What year was this? This is from essentially 1998 until like six years ago. Okay, so it's like 2014 ish. Yeah. And it was like, I was even like, uh, I ran into a bunch of anesthesiologists the other day at dinner that I used, but right before quarantine and they go, cook, you were right. What they were, we made, we mercilessly made fun of youth, uh, for being gluten free, but then it turns out everybody's like gluten.

So, but so then, but, but what happened is, is once I figured it out, that, and, and I had always told myself the story cuz I heard this story about, um, two people. Who were lawyers who wanted to change their career. And I, I, I heard it, I think on Tim Ferriss. And it was interesting cuz I started listening to Tim Ferriss years ago and I was like, and he gave me the hope that I was gonna get, be able to get free.

But the's awesome story. The story was that there was this one lawyer and so she, she opened up a yoga studio and then this other, they both hated their job. And then there's this other lawyer who became this expert in this super narrow thing of import, export legal stuff. So then what happened is he got the things that everybody wants, which is autonomy, money, and respect.

Yep. And then basically she moved into a commoditized market where she wasn't able to get the respect she wanted because she's just like an average yoga teacher. And so the whole thing ends up not paying off. Mm. And so for me, what happened is I started doing all of these nerve treatments and fixing peripheral nerve pain and back pain and stuff like that, that was super derivative of, of what I'd already been doing for 15 years.

But it was just like a, a, a, a modified approach. Mm-hmm. And so then that, that allowed me to sort of like be who I am within my medical practice. And, um, it's like the greatest thing of all time. Like I, and, and even, even now, like I had an, and I, I said I finally have started to make contact with anesthesiologists.

Because they're, I had one fly and, and I trained him for two days this week and they're so easy for me to train cuz they already know like the how to be sterile and how to do, do injections. Yeah. They've already got all this stuff. Like fine. Yeah. So then it's, and I, I. I was awesome because next thing you know, he's following me around and picking stuff up and, and, and doing things.

And I was like, if this is gonna be so easy. And then, and then, and so then what happens is I, I am ecstatic cuz I realized he's gonna be free. Like, I'm literally like going into the Matrix and unplugging him like Neo and then like he's gonna be free and he's gonna go do whatever he is gonna do, you know?

So it's kinda cool. You said something really, really powerful but you said it so casually that I have to go back to it, which is you said something like when you're doing this, you finally, you feel like you're finally getting to, to, you know, be who you are and what's, I'm curious when my experience, there's always like a moment or a kind of moment that is what gives rise to people saying something like that.

And I'm curious when you think about that moment that has you like where you just click in and you go like, yeah. This is, this is me, this is my moment. What's that moment for you? Okay, so the, uh, my friend, uh, Jesse told me this one, and which is interesting is she goes, when, when you start to you, she goes, in life, what you're going to do is you're gonna start to attract patients.

And fundamentally, the patients that you attract all have the same problems that you have, but you've just sort of, you've either fixed your problems or you're very well on your way to fixing them. And so then you have some problem as like 95% fixed. And so then it's like, if you had that problem and it was only 10% fixed, I would be like, oh, I totally got you, because I figured that out.

Mm-hmm. And, and so, um, and so then for me, what happened is all of a sudden, I, I spent from the time that I was 16 until now, trying to fix a bunch of stuff like the back and the knees and the shoulder and all this stuff. And I remember like sitting with a journal and when I was 17 saying, this is gonna be the year you're the legs.

I'm gonna go do squats and I'm gonna be jacked and it's gonna be amazing. And then I hurt, I got hurt. And so then I was like, oh God. And so then, but then what happened is next thing you know, we started fixing all this stuff. And so then now I walk around in clinic and it's like, I see these things that's like, oh, I used to have that.

And so then, and I, it's like, it's like almost ecstatic for me because I realize, oh, I know how to fix that. And so then I just love doing it. And then the, the, maybe the most interesting thing is, is that I think like a huge percentage of anesthesiologists kind of have, are running about like 20% PTSD all the time.

Mm. Just because it's so unbelievably stressful. Because like you meet some 75 year old grandmother and you're doing some surgery for her, and you appropriately managed everything, got everything prepared, but then all of a sudden she starts having arrhythmia, which is like in irregular heartbeat, which those genre of things happen all the time.

But if you meticulously manage it, then you can fix it right away. And so I had thousands and thousands of times where there was a problem and then I fixed it. And if I was so sort of super, super focused and which I spent every second trying to do, then you never have any problem. But you're living with the fear of that problem.

Yeah. You're always waiting for that shoe to drop. Yeah. And so, uh, so and so those moments of terror sort of drive you into being stuck a little bit in, in a fight or flight state. And um, and so then a huge part of my early practice was then just healing all of that stuff. And it turns out everything that we do is like quite helpful for that.

And when I was in medical school, I remember these guys, they were like, Hey, don't go into, like, don't go. It's kinda like walking around the va, they're like, oh, don't go take care of, do anything in ptsd cuz they never get better. Yeah. That was this conversation that was like going on among the doctors.

And so then. If you're having that conversation going on, then when you start to get a little of ptsd d then you're thinking, oh, but I would, I learned in medical school that they never get better, so I'm totally screwed. So that's the existential, um, angst than of an anesthesiologist because you, you're, you're, and, and I ran into an anesthesiology friend of mine and he goes, the problem is, is that you get re-exposed to the same potential trigger every single morning.

Every morning you go back to work and you meet someone, and then you do anesthesia for 'em, and then it's super dangerous, and then yet somehow you magically get through it. But they're, you're, you're afraid because you remember this one time last year or two years ago, or whenever it was, when something almost happened.

And so you're continually, so, uh, so we, we do a lot in the PTSD wellness front, which is the joy of my life because I feel like, uh, that. And musculoskeletal and infectious disease, I think are the three areas that I'm gonna make some a real impact. I think. Sean, I want to actually switch gears here and start to talk about that a little bit because I know you are kind of one of the, one of those guys out on the forefront of this type of work, right.

In terms of treating, you know, what you, the way you described it to me was that your clinic, you basically see 2, 2, 2 kind of categories of, of patients, you know, bucket one is somebody who's very much in the like human performance and optimization camp where you know, it's a total biohacker or maybe a high net worth individual or something like that, where they're really just trying to get everything possible out of what they've got to work with.

But then there's this other camp of like, you know, cases that everybody else thinks are hopeless. Right? Right. And that's really kinda what what you're speaking to and, and you've had really amazing success there, working with a variety of therapies, including ketamine. I was talk to, talk to me a little bit about that, like.

You know, in particular, the thing that I, you had said to me before that I'd love to hear you talk about a little more is you mentioned to me how it's such a, there's almost like this massive societal roi, uh, or a huge yield on, like being able to reset our most vulnerable people. And that's, I think, exactly what you're speaking to right now.

Ketamine is an amazing way to help people, and it's a, it is, you could, you could do something profound to help the most disadvantaged people. Ketamine a as an anesthesia drug that I've been, uh, using as to help, uh, because it's, it's good for pain relief and it's, it's a great, uh, it's a great component of an anesthetic.

So I've been using it for patients, um, for 20 years. But it turns out, uh, it can be very helpful for people with drug resistant depression and ptsd, and it's a mild psychedelic, but then it has this term I've been using, it's, it's called psycholytic. Hmm. And so if there's an emotional trigger and someone's on ketamine, that emotional trigger can go from like a eight or a 10 to a zero.

And because you remember everything that happens in that experience, you're able to sort of process the fact that this thing that I was like, really wired up about all of a sudden turns into total calm. And so then Ima and, and we do it with therapy where we'll be talking to people and they're, they're super frustrated about something.

And then, we'll, and then next thing you know, they're doing ketamine. And so then we say, Hey, What do you think about this? What do you think? How, how would you, and now normally you, you, that person would be, would be like, well that's not true for me. Just like, just you can imagine a million people you've met just like a snap response.

Including, including probably Yeah. Ourselves. Right? For sure. We all got 'em. And yet I, in that state, people go, oh, oh, that's a good idea. And so now, and next thing you know, you're, you're talking. So like, my, my total favorite on this and it's kind of interesting cuz my dad's a psychologist. Okay. And um, and that's partly how I ended up in this whole thing.

Cause I went into that, that does make sense. I went into anesthesia kind of to avoid psychiatry because I was, there was a joke in our family that psychiatry didn't work and, and. I see a lot of, uh, psychologists who come to see me who are in their sixties and seventies, who were somewhat overwhelmed by the, the stress of the experience of their career.

And then what we'll do is, and, and I did this with my, with my dad actually also, which was like the greatest thing of all time Wow. For, for our relationship. And so then what happens is, um, we, we, um, process through stuff and it's like all of a sudden you can talk about a bunch of things that before you didn't think you could talk about.

Hmm. And if you can just, sometimes, if you can just have a therapeutic conversation where you can kind of get that stuff off your chest and then you, you can see that there's a trajectory for getting better. And that, I think is the thing that happens with ketamine. And so then all of a sudden, People were like, I act, I think I'm actually gonna be okay.

So sort of like introduce like a new it actually, like they can see hope where there was none before. Right now, the lack of hope was, was, uh, partly related to the fact that the emotional triggers were so profound that it didn't allow them to see any, anything else. But then as the triggers go away, then you're kind of just like, uh oh.

Oh, that's an interesting idea. So this, this idea of triggers is really fascinating, right? Because they're, it's something we all have, and everyone who has even an ounce of self-awareness has experienced and noticed themselves, like wildly lose their shit over something that was like, you know, they, they've blown something way outta proportion.

We've all done that. Um, but I'm super curious, like, could you, could you sort of in layman's terms, explain a little bit about like what is this link between our neurophysiology and our psychology? Like what is a trigger in our brain and like what is actually happening in the brain when you ha when you work someone through this ketamine treatment that allows what you're describing this reframing to actually occur?

Okay. That's a really, that's a, that's a great question and I hope that I'm gonna do justice to it. Um, We have our consciousness and our framework of how we create our identity and our structure of, of our preferences and, and who we are. Okay? Now then that's intimately mapped into the limbic system. Mm.

And so then the limbic system is emotions. And now, interestingly in the limbic system, I'm, I've had this new way that I've been thinking about this, which is this, that there's emotions that are in rest and relaxed mo emotions, and then there are fight or flight emotions. Okay? So the fight or flight emotions are like fear and anger.

And worry and change. And so then those are good emotions and super useful because if the house was on fire, I might need to use anger to motivate somebody to do something or I might have to. So, so, and we've been running through, through these emotions forever. Okay, now then the rest and relax. Emotions are love, acceptance, gratitude, all the.

All the the touchy-feely good ones that we wanna be running. All the warm fuzzies. The warm fuzzies. Biore Reset Medical is a medical practice specializing in integrative therapies and advanced wellness protocols. At Biore Reset Medical, we treat some of the most challenging to diagnose and difficult to live with ailments that people suffer from today, including Lyme disease, chronic pain, P T D, and mycotoxin illness.

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Now then the way that our, our brain works is that our prefrontal cortex and all of our senses are mapping into this part of the brain called the amygdala, which is the fight or flight control center. Mm-hmm. And, um, when, if everything's cool, like right now. So I was just like, great. And so then the whole brain's on the brain wires into the hippocampus back here, which is like the memory part of the brain.

And it's, it's contextualizing emotion, but it's contextualizing co cognitively what's happening. And so we have this kind of robust. Cool thing happening, but then if something comes up that insinuates that we're not safe and that we might need to change our program to fight or flight to get up and get out of here, then that can turn the fight or flight part on.

And so we're constantly modulating back and forth. Like heart rate variability is kind of a, a measure of how quickly you can go back and forth. And so what should happen is that something crazy scary could happen and then, but we would realize that was, that's gone now and it was funny. It's funny or whatever.

And then we would just immediately switch back into the state. Yeah. And that's what happens with little kids. Mm. It's like our default setting. That's our default setting. Our default setting is, is that you, you know, you, you think about a little kid that you, that something crazy happens to them, and then like 10 minutes later you'd be like, Hey, can go take a nap.

And then they'll go light on and take a nap. But if a real stressful thing happened to you, you're not gonna be able to go take a nap 10 minutes later. Yeah. Now what happens is there are topics that are, that are related to our consciousness and our construct, our identity of who we are. And if that gets triggered, then what it does is it triggers a fight or flight response, and then that turns on the fight or flight emotions, which is like this anger, fear, shame.

And so then all of a sudden that can totally derail you because then all of a sudden those emotions take over and become overwhelming and they, they start to take over the consciousness because what they're doing is they're taking a, they're this incredible, powerful flavoring to an idea. And so there's an idea that might be a good idea, but then if there's a whole bunch of shame and worry and anger around that, it just like seems out of control.

Mm-hmm. And but, but then if the warm and fuzzy emotions are running around that idea, it might be like the greatest idea of all time. Now, part of our construct of our ego and stuff is what you hear this term called the default mode network. What happens is, Re learning to rewire the brain so that you're practicing being more in control.

And so tho those triggers are often, if that's true, then that says something about me that I don't like. Mm-hmm. And if, and that is worrisome, because if that's true, that means I'm not safe. Yep. And what happens is that happens so quickly that it leads to like a little bit of a rage response of like, cuz you, you don't want that to be true.

And so then you'll almost fight against fight, which paradoxically makes it true. And so then, so then what you have to do is sort of as you start to defrag these, and then you start to realize that there's like an entire universe inside here. And so then. All of a sudden then it's like I say, oh, okay, guess what?

My identity is, um, kind of interested in my identity, but it's like evolving so quickly that like my identity at the end of this covid thing is gonna be different than it was now. And so therefore what you, if you said something that was like triggering that, that might be triggering to my identity now, but it may not be triggering to my future identity.

Mm-hmm. Then this begin becomes the sort of logic game. And so then I go, oh, okay, well, so that's triggering to me now, but it's not triggering to the me in the future. Okay. And so then what? And so then if I'm able to work my way through a timeline and I realize, oh, so then I don't need to be triggered by it now.

Ah, okay. Yeah. Because I'm not super wired into like, whatever my identity is, like let's say you said, and so then what that allows you to do is to navigate through things and not be tr too trigger to people disagree because you're not threatened by the the, by the fact that, uh, you're not gonna feel safe.

That's the fundamental thing. Yeah, so let me, let me, lemme just pause you for a second, make sure I'm with you. I'm gonna try and recap that in, in layman's terms. So what I think you're saying, and please correct me where I'm getting this wrong, is it, there's like kind of a multi-part system going on here, right?

So there's like the mental you, I think you called it like an idea or a mental formation, right? There's a concept in your mind and then that concept has sort of like has. Wired in associations that trigger emotions to go along with it, right? Yeah. So they can be the idea of shame or an event that there's an, there's an event and then that's wired to the emotions of shame, for example.

And that is sort of like kicking in. So event happens, that's the trigger. It kicks off this entire cascading effect of emotions that takes over the nervous system off. You go into fight or flight and next thing you know, you don't know what's you, you don't even know what's going on. And so it seems like what's happening under, under the treatments that you all are creating is that you're using assistive.

Interventions like ketamine, for example, which has a psychological and physiological effect of kind of like making you feel, first of all, really safe. And so you feel safe. And then I think you, you also, I think in the research I, I found that you're also doing things like stella ganglion blocks to like turn off the fight or flight nervous system.

Right. And so it seems like you're almost like using this intervention to go and like snip the wire that's linking this mental formation to an automatic response so you can then kind of talk through and introduce a new linkage. Is that what's going on? Yeah. Yeah. That is, that is exactly what's going on.

But then what I'm, my attitude is once you figure out how to do this, then you don't need to do any of those other things. And so then like my greatest, the people that are like most influential to me are like, Artists and comedians and stuff like that. And so then like, what ha what happened is if Dave Chappelle or Jerry Seinfeld, like I've been watching a lot of them lately, Uhhuh, if they saw something, they would just call that out.

They'd be like, well, that's crazy. And in a funny way, call out the behavior rather than getting triggered by it. Mm. Because as soon as you comment on it that that takes all of the power away from it. Mm-hmm. Cause you've externalized it, you've given language to it, it's not you anymore. Yeah. The, and so then this be, this is like a practice and ketamine is just like some training wheels to kind of get somebody going or still, like, ganglion block is like a hard reboot of like the central nervous system.

But then once you kind of get going, then the, the issue is, is that there's gonna be a bunch of conversations like this. That are like non triggering or it's like totally non triggering for me anyways. And so then that, but then there's a bunch of conver other conversations that are slightly harder and then some that are very difficult.

Mm. In, in life. Mm-hmm. And so then what happens is, is learning to navigate the difficult ones where you can call out like a comedian does. Oh, they're, oh, that he's tr that is starting to make me feel this way. And then if you can diagnose that happening real time and then you can almost like see yourself going into fight or flight.

This is what I just started being able to do only like in the last six months. And then go, oh, okay. That. I'm, I was triggered by that, but there's like totally no reason for me to be triggered by that. Like I'll generally, almost always realize, and, and that trigger is generally based on an idea that I picked up.

From 10 years ago. Mm-hmm. Or it was an idea that my parents had, and so I just bought that hook, line and sinker. Yep. But Karen, this me around my whole life and didn't even realize it. That, and then that's how, why I go to this timeline because then I go, oh, okay. I'm triggered by this now, but that, that's probably not even me.

That's just something that I picked up. And so I'm probably gonna let that go, which means like almost anything that I'm triggered by now, I'm guessing that I'm not gonna be triggered by it in five years. Mm. Yeah. Now be, maybe I'll be triggered by other things. Right. But then what happens is, is that it leads to this evolution.

Of consciousness where next thing you know you're navigating, like, what I can, I can tell you is I've been super enjoying my life like a hundred times more than I've ever enjoyed it before. Kind of doing this principle, this is so fascinating because like, it's like a shift in, in a mental formation under the right conditions can create these like radically cascading effects neurologically, physiologically, and psychologically.

That, I mean, that's, that's just incredible. Like, that's like all bets are off kind of territory. So this is great. This is so great. So there's a percentage of people who will show up and they'll be like, you know what? I listened to everything and I know it to be true, but it's just not true yet. But I know that I'm gonna do everything and then I'm gonna be okay.

And then sure enough they will be. Yeah. And then there's another group of people that are in the, even in the. End stage chronic pain and then I'll start to see them and then they will also follow kind of the similar trajectory cuz it's, it is getting your head wrapped around the idea that it's like, uh, there's a way to live that's basically super easy and pleasant and wonderful.

And then, and we were designed to be able to have the sirens start to go off if the house is on fire. But then we should be just basically having a great time the rest of the time telling stories and kicking it and enjoying ourselves. Yeah. Ourselves. Yeah. That's so fascinating. So one, one thing I'm curious about is like, because what you were just describing there in a lot of ways, you could, you could kind of, um, in the world of psychedelics, that's often referred to as like set and setting, right?

Like an intention, right? The way people approach something and their mental sort of where they're at mentally, their intentions for doing it, and then literally like where they do it and does that make them feel safe and all that. It, it seems to have this huge effect, right? Like you were just describing, right?

Someone comes to you and they're already like, bought in, it's gonna go better than someone who's like, Ugh, I guess we'll try it. Um, but do you have a, is there a sense you fit, you've picked up like why that actually makes such a difference? Like what is going on? That, that, that concept, the presence of that concept makes such a difference.

Okay, so we're hanging out right now, everything's mapping in. And so if the setting, setting is amazing, you're, you're turning the volume way up on warm and fuzzies. Okay. Okay. Now then the concept of, and then I could, I could go into any substance you want. I could go, I could talk you through the physiology of it.

But in broad terms, if you turn up the volume on warm and fuzzies, then that the consciousness sort of sits on top of that. And so then that what's going on in the limbic system then starts to massively influence consciousness. Cuz if you're feeling warm and fuzzies, then you're gonna be having intellectual thoughts that.

Have a warm and fuzzy vibe to them. In parallel to that, the opposite is, is that if you're in, if you're set and settings chaos, then that's driving, uh, the opposite consciousness, right? Like the, the idea that the emotions, the, the emotions drive the thoughts just as much as the thoughts drive the emotions.

Yes. Yeah. And so now then the name of the game is then trying to figure out how to hack warm and fuzzies, and then connecting that to an idea of consciousness and an identity. And, um, so for, so for example, like some of the psychedelics will, will sort of defrag the default mode network a little bit. And so it'll, it'll soften, uh, our, our.

Our view of identity of ourselves and then make us way more open to connection to other people. So really quick, I just wanted to clarify two things. So default mode network for, for people who aren't, uh, familiar, and please correct me where I get this wrong, is kind of like when you're doing nothing, that's what's active in your brain, right?

When you're just like taking a walk, doing whatever. That's the part of the brain that is, is sort of generally, um, on and, and in dominant. Is, is that correct? Yeah, I think that's okay. And, and it's also, and it, it really relates to ego and our sense of I and uh, of identity to some extent as well. So sort of self ref, sort of self-referential.

It's like the seat of the, of the identity and the ego. Yes. Talk about defragging it, what does defragging kind mean in this context? So, so. So then like there's this question like, who are you? Right? And so then that's like this something that you can begin to explore. And so then as you start to explore and contextualize who you are, then all of a sudden you realize, oh, okay, maybe that's who I was.

But now that it's, it becomes this evolving thing and mm-hmm. As, and, and so I think meditation, mindfulness, yoga, breathing, uh, functional medicine, integrative medicine, uh, regenerative medicine, every, every technique that we have allows you to start to journey into, uh, continually recreating who you are and then how that relates to the entire nervous system.

And then putting that together as, and then just being, being who you are. And most, People are, I think, are somewhat trapped in an identity that was created in the past, but they're living it out. So like that was why I felt, I think I was trapped by a decision that I made to go into anesthesia. And so then I was just like doing my entire identity was doing something.

It's, it is interesting, like what happened is I was like triggered by things about like insurance and stuff like that. Mm-hmm. And so I remember, and, but, but then what happened is then I left that behind. I don't even, like, I'm not, it's, I'm completely not triggered by it, but it's like, because it's not even on my radar screen of something that's, uh, relatable to me.

And so then that's an example of as soon as you start to evolve into the, the idea that you're evolving, then that's amazing because then you get to, now you can just take yourself wherever you want to go. That's so fascinating cuz it's like, so I've, I've gotten, I'm very interested in meditation and mindfulness and I, I started practicing like, like 13 years ago or something like that.

And it's been an incredibly fascinating journey for me. And, and just listening to you now, I'm starting to understand why it works. Even the idea you just described is the idea that the self, the idea of the self is just that it's an idea. Yeah. Right. And so it's shiftable in the same way any other idea is shiftable, which is just, I mean, like, it's so, that's so simple.

It's profound. I think it's amazing. Like, you know, in your story I hear you as someone who you were trapped in the concept of I'm an anesthesiologist, which is very, which is very different than I'm someone who does anesthesiology. Right, right. Like your identity was anesthesiologist as opposed to I, how, how do you conceive of that now, by the way?

I'm curious, like, if, how, what is, what do you conceive of your yourself as now identity wise since you shifted from being like, you know, Boxed in by the, the label anesthesiologist. I'll tell people like, I'm an anesthesiologist, like I'll say that. Sure. Like if what kinda doctor you, I'll say I'm an anesthesiologist.

Um, and yet, like I think of myself as a, as like a, as a physician, and I'm thinking myself as just trying to put together, trying to understand the human body basically. And soul. And, and so then, and, and, and then just like, and so the, and so the way, and so you're trying to understand the human body. You're trying to understand consciousness.

So that's like this goal, and then just, and you hear about it, what are the, what do you call that? The practice of medicine? Mm. So it's just a practice because like whatever I did as great as it was is, let's just say probably not gonna work for you. Because it, it is, you're, you're special and unique and I've gotta figure it out all over again because it's the practice of medicine, because I'm just gonna relate to you and we're gonna figure it out and then that's gonna be magical.

And so is the practice. Now the practice of mindfulness and meditation is also kind of amazing because what that does is that pulls you a little bit out of the ego construct and kind of gets you calmer. And so then living your life is almost like a practice, like part of what I'm trying to do is just kind of get people to the real, understand the, the reality that they're gonna be fine, everything's gonna be okay.

And then they can start to do this. And I always say, if I was good enough at what I'm trying to do, then I wouldn't need to do ketamine or silly ganglion blocks or anything like that. And I'm pretty sure that what's gonna happen is, is there's gonna be like 10 people who listen to this podcast who kind of get it, and then they start to basically self re rewire the architecture of their central nervous system.

And, and then next thing you know, once you start to just run this program, it's just like an amazing program and you're gonna be fine. It would be awesome if everybody had access to you or someone like you. Unfortunately not everyone does right now. And we'll come back to the sort of societal ROI bit here in a second.

But for, for someone who doesn't, what could they do starting today to run this program? I think what you, what I think the the thing is, is you've gotta be easy on yourself. Because you've been, whatever story that you bought or picked up is a story that was like from, you picked up when you're five from your, your parents said something you, you bought at hook, line and sinker.

And so then, so then you just gotta be easy on yourself. So if you get super triggered today, then uh, then just give yourself a mulligan and realize it's gonna be okay cuz I'm gonna get over it. And then as you start to get triggered, um, what I try to do is I try to be Jerry Seinfeld all the time in my mind.

So I'm trying if I can, cuz if I can call out the. The absurdity or the insanity of something, then that's then I'm definitely not gonna be triggered and every everyone else is gonna laugh. So I try. Comedy, I think is like one of the most effective strategies. And then suspending disbelief. What I've noticed, something triggering is said and then all of a sudden the alarm bell start going off.

Now, if this was a practice, then the idea is, is that when you start to see that coming towards you in slow motion, you're like, oh, oh, okay, so this is happening and then I'm having these feelings. So then I'm just gonna kind of breathe with that a little bit and I'm gonna suspend disbelief. I'm not gonna like go into that cause and I'm just gonna like, okay, um, I've gotta wait.

And, and so then a lot of times I'll sit, I'll just like sit for like even a minute. I'll just be like, okay. And then, and then just use, and then what will happen is often just that amount of time is enough for you to realize, oh, that was stupid that I was reacting that way. It's almost always like, it's not If you, if even with me, I would say if I went back and looked at the game tape of every 10 times that I was triggered, I would kind of blame myself like 90% of the time.

And then as a result, then you feel bad about yourself. And so it's like this thing, but then, so then, so then you're basically just defragging those loops. Mm. It reminds me of a way I explained the benefit of meditation to a friend who was like, curious, but he, he's like, yeah, it sounds cool, but like I don't get practically like why to do it.

Right? Because it takes his time and consistency and blah, blah, blah. And the only way that I was, I was able to land it for him was I was like, imagine you're standing on, you're standing on a platform at a train station and you're there and all of a sudden, you know, you feel that like rush of wind that's kind of like shaking your, you know, blowing through your hair and like hitting your face and you look over and you like can see this train coming, right?

You're standing on the platform and you just see the train pulling in. You see it coming and you know, like you have some sense of where that train is going to go, right? Because you know what platform you're on and it's going to this city and whatever. And he's like, and I was like, it's kind of like that, but in your normal life, like you see this thought coming down the tracks.

Mm-hmm. And you kind of have that moment of choice cuz now that you're aware of it, you have a choice about like, do I get on the train? Or do I not. Oh, good. And you can stand there and let the train, like you can stand there, watch the doors open on the train, like you're in the subway, and then let them close and watch the train pull out.

And you just didn't get on board and you still felt all of the rush of the train coming in, and you feel the rush of the train coming out, but you didn't get on board. Oh my God, that is so good. Yeah. Yeah. That's like the only, and, and like speaking for myself that has saved, like that alone has saved me so many times.

Like even last night, there was a moment where I got really triggered. Oh, really? And I was like, oh shit. Oh yeah, I got super triggered about some dumb shit. And I was like, I could see it happening. And I was like, okay, all right. And I like excused myself for a minute. Just went to the bathroom and I just like sat there and breathed for a minute because, and I, it was one of those things where you're like, oh yeah, there's that train.

That's that thing happening again. Right? That's that train. But as you said, like it go, it, it it, if you wait, if you just keep breathing and wait it, like the train will leave and thank God you're not on board because I would've ruined the dinner. Right. Isn't that amazing? Isn't that amazing? And so what was it, your limbic system, you could feel that you were willing to kinda let it go.

How did, what was going on in your mind as, as, as you were letting that train come in and go out the station? What, what were you telling yourself? Uh, well the first thing was, I think because I've, I've made the mistake of getting on that train before Uhhuh. And, uh, so I, I, I now know that train and I know where that train goes.

Yeah. And so I think maybe, maybe you have, maybe we have to screw it up first at least once to know where that train goes. And then now I recognize that train coming in and it has a certain sort of like, tone to it. It has like a feel, like a feeling tone. And I'm like, oh, oh, there's a thing. And I feel the pull of it emotionally.

I feel it pulling me almost like a, like a gravity. Well, right. Um, and I know I, I can, I have an association now where like, I know that feeling where it goes. And so, um, that's what it's like, is I can feel it and I, and then it's literally just that choice of like, I'm like, okay, you know what's happening?

You know what's happening. Okay. So then we'll, we'll, we'll go into this then. What can, can you wanna, so since you, what category of trigger was this? Was it about who you are or is it about what, what genre of trigger. Personal, personal worth and values. It was around like, shame. Oh, I'll just one in the book.

I, I like, I, that's the oldest one I had so much, like, it's interesting, I had a lot of shame. I, and I don't know why, I don't know. It was like almost cultural or something like that. And we, we have this joke that like, whenever, if anybody comes, if that cop comes up, I'll, I'll be like, Hey, um, we have a special like in the clinic today.

And, uh, I actually have been collecting a bunch of shame and we put it in garbage bags in the bag and we're giving it away for $10. So if you want like, and joking about it, you know, because, uh, it's because that, so, so then this is, I haven't really talked about this, but this is what I think is going on, is that shame part of the limbic system is hardwired into the fight or flight part of the nervous system because it's one of the fight or flight.

Emotions. And so then what it can do is it can take you in the middle of a wonderful dinner party into a moment that, uh, is, is is crazy, right? Like you can't imagine, like you can't imagine a scenario where blowing the dinner party up is a good idea, right? And, and yet you could totally do it. That's why this is a practice, just like the practice of meditation because, and interestingly, apparently Jerry, I have, I don't personally know Jerry Seinfeld, but apparently like he's real big on meditation and like, as you start to, and, and what I think my biggest influence of my life, Now is like seeing the wise people who come to see me.

I learn more from them than they learn from me. And so they'll tell me stuff. And the, um, this guy Dave, uh, from Hawaii, just so he knows who I'm talking about, he goes, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing again and again, thinking there's gonna be a different outcome. And that's kind of like the, um, the trains coming in, right?

The trains coming into the station and you're thinking, if I below this up, it's gonna be different from the last 10 times, right? But then he goes, the definition of wisdom is, and I've loved this, I just totally love this, he goes, is if there is a new data point that you find is true, and then that means other things that are in your ecosystem, Are therefore false, you may have to let go of those belief systems.

Now then that as a sort of a mental or a psychological construct is amazing because then next thing you know, you can very quickly start to def defrag and let go of belief systems that you used to have, that you held totally firmly. Like I had all of these belief systems when I was doing, working in ICUs in the hospitals that I have, I have totally different belief systems now, but I, I had, it took me 10,000 times of watching that train come into the station and go, okay, I've got a, that belief system is not working.

So then how do I, how do, where is my new belief system? What is the what's, what is truth? And then basically trying to constantly update that in, in search of, Of the next direction. I love that. So I, I actually wanna come back now. So we, we've covered so much interesting ground here around the mind and what's happening in these types of interventions, whether that's meditation or ketamine or anything like this.

I, I'd love to actually, I wanna circle back to something we touched on earlier. Um, you know, we talked about there's this r o I to, uh, like helping the people who are most vulnerable. Right? And I know this, that certainly, um, it's something you've been doing lately with your staff, right? You, you told, I, I'd love to hear you talk a little bit about how you're using the knowledge and the practices that you've developed to actually, um, make the people, you know, support the people in your organization and in turn your patients.

And that sort of seems like an example of the ROI you were talking about on a, on a larger scale. Oh yeah, so that's interesting. So we, um, you, you're so interesting with what's going on with the whole covid thing because everybody, and so to go back to what we were talking about, fight or flight and fear and all of that stuff, all of that, all of those emotions, all of that stuff is like the volumes turned up to tent.

So it's almost like, it's so, so interesting. And so then what I decided to do is we've been doing IVs on the, anybody in the staff that wants them pretty much every day. So we've been doing IVs and we've been doing, um, and then we've been doing some, the PTSD work that we do. And it's been, and the feedback that I got and I wasn't really looking for, I was just kinda like, well, what happened?

And the feedback that I got, it was, Always in the genre of, oh, we're gonna be okay. It's like we we're gonna be okay as an organization. We are gonna be okay as we go back and start treating patients and, and helping them. And, um, and so I ju I did it as a test and it was, it, like, it was amazing to see the see because as soon as they realize they're gonna be okay, when a patient comes in, the patient's gonna realize they're gonna be okay.

Cause the staff's okay. And it's interesting because I'm trying to get some people to try to help. We're, we're writing a clinical trial, we've written a couple, and I'd like to go to a, a real underserved area and, and start to treat people and, and do it as a scientific approach and, and help the, the most disenfranchised because this, uh, this moment is, is so, Overwhelming from a PTSD front, from a medical front, from an economic front.

And I feel like it makes as much, it would make as much sense in Compton if I could figure out how to reach, reach it there as where I am. And it's just gonna have to be different price points. But what I'm, I'm hoping to do is that as, as we begin to realize that, uh, there's more hope as we, we begin to realize that like there's a chance that we're gonna be okay.

Uh, I, I want everybody in, in society to realize that. And it doesn't. And, and, and once, once, and it's interesting, like the hundred monkeys kind of idea, once. What's that? I don't, I don't know that idea. Oh, so the, their idea is just like, uh, if it takes, like, it takes like 10 hours to teach a monkey how to do something.

Okay. So then, then I do bring another monkey in and they're living together and it takes 10 hours to teach 'em something. And so then eventually there's like 99 monkeys. By the time you get the 99th monkey or the hundredth monkey there, he walks in, looks around, sees all the other monkeys doing stuff, and he learns it like in like 10 in one minute.

Ah, okay. He just, just does what they're all doing. He just does what they're doing. He picks it up and, and then he's fine. And so then what my idea is, is that we're like mon, we're monkey like five and six, but then once people begin to realize kind of like a lot of the stuff that I'm talking about, then all of a sudden because they had, because of the, the existential angst and the idea, they thought that they weren't gonna be okay, they weren't gonna make, it was so overwhelming they kinda gave up.

But when they look around and they realize, oh, oh, there's like a relatively simple construct that you can just start to, to apply. What I think is gonna happen is then maybe 70% of people could do it and be totally fine, and they wouldn't need any of these other things because they would just realize that there's a way to kind of manage.

The mental, emotional, physical, spiritual state, and just kind of a functional, healthy way, and then reset everything. No, I love this because it, it, it's sort of, I think the way you, you described it to me once before was, you know, we, there's like this idea, this, I think you called it, like the existential pain that we all carry right there.

There's this fear that we all have that, you know, there's, there's this hunch that it's all gonna fall apart, right? There's this sort of latent, low grade, persistent anxiety of the neck shoes about to drop. Yes. And at some point, if we're able to realize, like, oh, And even if that's true, I'm, I'm okay. It's all going to be okay that suddenly there's this like, there's like this release and the idea that you can create that, uh, for the, some of the most vulnerable people in, in any system, whether that's a company, a society, whatever, uh, really just adds, I think, I think the word I heard you use before that I really liked was like coherence.

Right? It increases the overall coherence for the entirety of that system, right? When you can level up the, the experience of the most disenfranchised, the most at risk. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was, it was. It was amazing to see how helpful it was to start to do IVs and stuff like that and help people. And within our practice, which is super small, you know what I mean?

Like 20 people. But, but you know, it's, it is, it's tricky because there's a, a very interesting conversation now about, um, what's evidence-based and what's not evidence-based in medicine. And so there's a, there there are, there are, people are listening and kind of going after people who are, appear to be trying to profit or trying to sell something that is, is not, um, doesn't have evidence.

And so, and yet most of the approaches that I'm talking about are not, uh, um, FDA approved or, and, and they're, they're early. And so, sure. And so it's, it's very interesting kind of, and the volume on that, the volume on that controversy got turned up to 10 with, with Covid, you know, so, which is why I'm, uh, anything that I do in that, uh, space is gonna be part of, uh, IRB approved.

It stands for Institutional Review Board where people are, uh, given a, a consent form that, uh, has been approved by like an ethics committee and stuff like that. Yeah. But, um, but it's, it's, it's going to be an interesting, because for example, Google doesn't Google and the search engine algorithms are not allowing, uh, people to market.

Uh, experimental. Uh, so there's gonna be a very interesting sort of evolution of, uh, voices in medicine. And, uh, and so then like, like I said, I, I came from the heart of the medical industrial complex, so I came from a, a world that was very, I would say, a similar mindset to somebody like Fauci. You know what I mean?

Or, yeah. Yeah. And, and, and, and so then, Having kind of conversations and, and, and then tracking that through, through this moment in time. And then through like new iterations of like who we are. I, I, I super look forward to, because it's just that same, that same conversation that we were talking about is like kind of further furthering, uh, gathering more data and, and getting better and, and then, then continually re-asking yourself the same questions.

Yeah, for sure. You know, it's so interesting, like your, your work, you know, with you, you do a lot of clinical work with individuals, right? Dealing with, sometimes it's the optimization side of things, but other times, as we've talked about, it's dealing with debilitating levels of anxiety or P T S D and, and using this whole suite of tools that you're, you've already got and that you're continuing to discover, to reset these systems and sort of restore people to their natural wellness, um, is amazing.

And I'm really curious as someone, you know, I think a lot about and, and talk a lot about on this show, about, um, you know, what is the future of business? How do we use products and services to not only enliven people, but also to enliven organizations in the spaces that we all inhabit together. And I'm curious if you're seeing anything like this make its way into the organizational level, like almost biohacking or Neurohacking at the organizational level with some of these cutting edge, uh, groups.

Is that, is there something like that going on, or what are you seeing there? That's amazing. First of all, if there's an organization that wants to do that, I would love to do that for your organization. And so then what hap what you have to do is you have to do a real good job of having, uh, some things that are protocol oriented, kinda like what we were talking about.

Mm-hmm. And then, and then also creating the space for systems thinking and collaboration. And, and so then this is interesting. I, I have been super interested in like wellness, like workplace wellness. Yeah. And yet it's, I've always thought of it as kind of a con, huh? Because it was mainly like in, in, in medicine, uh, if you had to go see the wellness committee, there was a problem, excuse of people, you know what I mean?

And, and so, Finding a constructive way to support people is, is going to be crucial. And I think that there are a bunch of elements of, of what I'm talking about that could be wrapped into like a, a corporate kind of identity that would be, that would help people be more functional and in less in fear and less and less in kind of fight or flight.

The cause the less than I'm in fight or flight, I am the way more effective I'm gonna be. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You're more creative, you're gonna be more connected, you're gonna communicate better. And, and yet there has been a, there's a little bit of a fear of if I, um, spend a whole bunch of time doing that, I'm not gonna be efficient at getting work done.

And, and so then like that, it's like a double-edged sword. But what I think is gonna happen is, is there are gonna be organizations and groups that are going to start to deploy these. And then what's gonna happen is, and I, and I'm convinced about this, so my hypothesis is that over time I'm gonna be cheaper and I will compete against insurance companies at like, anything, uh, I'm just gonna start with like easy things.

So like, for example, the, the one that I would, uh, one of the, the first one I would do would be like, okay, I'll compete against insurance companies for total knee replacement, cuz I think what I would do would be cheaper than total knee replacement. And so then you just start to do some data and analyze that.

And so then what will happen is as organizations begin to deploy this genre of technology, They will quickly find out what the ROI is on, on each of 60 different categories. Mm-hmm. And so then all of a sudden you have, you may see big organizations find out, oh, okay, well this actually is, is is totally gonna pay off because, uh, it, and, and, and, and each, that's like 200 less.

There's a whole bunch of data points that each person could have. And so it is gonna take time to deploy different technology to improve whatever the problems are, um, and then to track those outcomes and see what happens with efficiency. But to some extent, Anytime an organization seems to care. It's like, remember Google?

Like in the early days it was like, don't be evil. If you have a feeling that your organization super cares about you, then you're probably gonna do an amazing job of working. Yeah. You're gonna work that much harder. It, it's interesting. Like, I wonder, I wonder, part of my brain goes like, huh, I can, I can imagine a future like where this stuff is available within the sort of the spectrum of corporate wellness.

Mm-hmm. In the same way that like mindfulness has moved into almost mainstream corporate wellness. Mm-hmm. That I think I could totally see this sort of biohacking stuff. Getting towards that, towards that same level where you can imagine, you know, the Googles of the world, the apples of the world, having these things available for people.

Um, because they, you know, I think over time we'll see. I mean, we don't know. We don't have the, the full on studies yet, which is why hopefully we get some, uh, and we can create some studies, but I think we'll see the data. Um, I basically share your hypothesis that, that the data will prove out that like, this is so worth it.

Right. Right. And so then we just have to find the right package of things that are relatively inexpensive, uh, that are relatively high reward. And, and so, and then deploying those in a, in a, in an organization. And then when people start to get better, that that uplevels the whole organization and the consciousness of everybody's like, oh, we're like, it's almost the same thing I was talking about as a.

For an individual, but everybody in the organization starts to realize, oh, we're gonna be okay. Mm-hmm. And so then, and so then we just have to figure out what the protocols are and what the, what the price points are to begin to deploy that in for large groups of people. And then you begin to say, oh, okay, well we can deploy as soon as you can have that genre of thinking, then we could do that at Apple, but we could also do that in the inner city.

Yeah. I love that. As we move forward into this future, there's gonna be so many of these things, new, new treatments available. Right. And there's gonna be new studies coming out and, um, we're, this is a little bit of the wild west for people, which is exciting. On the one hand, it can also be overwhelming for people.

It can be confusing, scary, all of these things. Um, and whether we're talking about some of the, the treatments that we're talking about in this conversation, like the ketamine stuff or anything else that's gonna come out, like all the covid treatments that are under development, et cetera, et cetera. So how should listeners actually evaluate studies or medical claims that they come across?

Because most people are not trained scientists and we're kind of out in the wild west here. So how would, how would you recommend that a listener evaluate a medical claim that they see, uh, in terms of like, thinking about the quality of the studies or otherwise, basically trying to like, figure out what's the good stuff and what's quackery, right.

So. That's a phenomenal, that's a phenomenally good question. I think it's experiences like this, people can kind of hear at least where I'm coming from, the genre of, of where I'm coming from. And I didn't dig too deep scientifically much today. But then as you, so you're gonna be able to take that, um, normally.

There's this long peer review process for trials, and what's happening is people are publishing, um, work, and then we're going back and looking at it and going, Hey, that wasn't as good as we thought it was. So for example, like with Covid, there was a drug that came out, a drug combination of hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin, uh mm-hmm.

Which are two drugs. And the concept was if you looked at the early papers, it seems like this drug's a a home run and it's gonna solve everything. And, uh, it it, it wasn't that by any stretch of the imagination, I think. And so there was problems with that study. And so then, uh, on my podcast, I started to interview people who started to criticize, uh, that research a little bit and then start to have a conversation around it.

Uh, I, I had another one recently where we talked about drug, uh, the, the testing. That's happening cuz there's a whole bunch of problems with that and there's not an easy way for a layperson to do it. But I think there's a lot of great voices in the integrative space and I think they're starting to, like Mark Hyman, I think is this is a, a great voice and, and he's someone you can listen to.

I think a lot of the influencers are great because they're finding people out there that are doing things and uh, and then sh shining a light on them. And, um, it's a social and it's a medical and it's a scientific, and it's a collaborative kind of process where the whole world's kind of doing this together right now.

And we're. We're literally making it happen and science is being shared and people that were in silos are all of a sudden those are all coming down. And, and, and, and what I think is gonna happen is that there's a friend of mine's developing a platform that's gonna try to answer this question. And so what's gonna happen is there's gonna be evolving technology, evolving experiences that we have that begin to bring data in.

I'm in Silicon Valley, so they always say who he, who has the most data wins. And so then, uh, and so it's, it is gonna be an evolving and kind of nuanced thing. Uh, I wish I had a better answer than that. Two, two resources that, uh, people, listeners might find useful on the sort of question about evaluating medical claims that these are ones I just recently came across that I don't, I can't fully endorse them yet, but they come from sources that I trust.

So I think they're probably really good, but I haven't, I can't fully sign off on them yet, but worth checking out. Uh, one is a book called Bad Science by a guy named, I think it's Ben Gold. Uh, and then the other one, there's a, another doctor who's, uh, has a great podcast that I really like. Uh, in addition to Matt's, his name is Peter Attia.

And, uh, he has a series on study studies and it's basically thinking about how to, uh, evaluate medical studies and scientific studies that you come across so that when you see some medical claim, you can, you know, kind of think for yourself about how, how, how legit is it basically. Uh, so we'll link to all that in the show notes, but those are two that, that I have come across that came up in my research for this conversation that I wanted to at least mention.

Yeah, he's really good. Peter is really good. Yeah, I really like his stuff. He's, he's got some great stuff, great podcasts as well. Yeah. Um, so a couple rapid fire questions for you. Um, the first one is, uh, you know, you talked, you talked earlier in, in our conversation about, uh, wanting to make a, a certain meaningful impact and how you, you, you feel like you're starting to, and, and you can start to see, see that, see, see that, uh, that arc in your, in your work.

What is that impact you wanna have?

I wanna make a really big impact in, in the space of depression, anxiety, PTs, d and I wanna make people aware that they have way more control over those things than they, than they thought they did. And then I wanna basically introduce the concept of some genre of a practice. That they can deploy to make that dream a reality.

I love it. I love it. Uh, and then in recent memory, and that could be a week, it can be a year, whatever. What is a small change that you've made that's had an outsized impact on you or your life or how you show up?

It's interesting.

I do like two or three small changes like every single day. It's like, it's like constantly experimenting. I love it. And, and, and I think that maybe that, maybe that is, it's, it's that, and you know, I was thinking of the story. There's a, um, there was the, you, you know how people can get an ulcer in their stomach.

I. I think, yeah, it's uh, it's like bacterial, right? Well, so that's great. It's perfect. So what happened is the, the idea was that it was from too much acid and, um, stuff like that. And, but the idea was definitely not that it's bacterial and in fact, yeah, it was like everybody thought it was like stress and things like that.

Yeah. And so this guy, um, this guy had this idea that was a very alternate idea. Which is this. Oh, it could be bacteria. And so it was, it was, and so then he had a patient who had that bacteria, and then he inoculated himself with it, and he got an ulcer now. Mm-hmm. What happens is, th the was such an out of the box idea that, um, they tried to kick him out of like the society gastroenterologist that he was in and, um, because it was just an anathema to them.

And, uh, but he ends up obviously winning a Nobel Prize because he totally changes our way that we, we think about gastroenterology from then on. And so then I, my little thing that I'm trying to do is to basically keep my ears and eyes open for noticing truth. And, and then fall doggedly following that so that, because I'm, I'm, I'm hopeful that I will continue to do that.

And then in doing so, there's a whole bunch of things that are currently dogma that will not be dogma in the future. And so then, then finding, finding that out, because as soon as you find that out and then change your consciousness around that, then that leads to superhuman growth. Because when we're trapped in dogma is we're super dysfunctional.

And now the, it's hard to do that because you're contextualizing this problem that we're talking about, which is, is that the data. And then what happens when you're starting to look at the science is, is that there's an enormous amount of bias. So when you say, what is quackery, there's certain people that have a bias that anything that's not what they believe is quackery.

Hmm. And so then, so then it's a nuance. Then now that's the reason that the practice of medicine is so awesome, because then it's just like, uh, what my approach is gonna be new with each new person that comes in, because you're kind of figuring that out. But as you do clinically, you start to get like, um, a, a, a certain amount of wisdom that that helps you navigate your way through.

Complex, complex situations and so and so, then that's, I guess that's, that is what I'm spending like a hundred percent of my time trying to do. I love that. I love that. And so sort of, I think riffing off that, what is, if you could have everyone listening to this start to ask themselves one question, what would that question be?

Okay, so then this is not what I was gonna say. This is, well, this isn't what I would say. So then, um, it, given, given a given, given a situation, the question is, what is the funniest way to respond to this? You're asking yourself. Like, I, I've been hearing, um, like I've been watching comedians in cars with coffee and stuff like that, you know?

Okay. And so what happens is, is comedians are just sitting there and they're asking, what's the funniest, like the funniest response to this. It turns out the funniest response is always gonna be the least triggered and the most true response. Huh? So if you're trying to like hack truth, you, you, you may actually get closer to it from comedians than philosophers.

I love it. And then it also has the side effect of keeping you like out of fight or flight, which is in, which is to keep you in the super high performance state. I love it. I love it. We're laughing and kicking ass at the same time. That's, that's, I want that to be my new tagline. It's perfect. All right.

Well, Matt, this has been so much fun. Thank you so much for taking the time to be here. Uh, just in closing, where can people reach out to you, uh, if they wanna learn more about you or your practice or contribute to what you're up to in any way? Yeah, so the podcast is at Bio Reset Podcast. And then, uh, our website's bio reset.com.

And, uh, we're in, um, Campbell, California, Northern California and would be delighted. You can call and, uh, talk to us and figure out what we're up to and we'd love to, uh, connect with you. Awesome. And we'll link to all that stuff in the show notes. But Matt, thank you so much for being here and absolute pleasure.

Oh, you're the best.

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