Did Ben Greenfield Get Vaccinated (Yet?), Can You Get COVID Twice, The Latest On Omicron, Treating Long Haul COVID & Much More With Dr. Matt Cook

 On this episode of the Ben Greenfield Fitness Podcast, how well do they work? And then how long do they work for? This is gonna be with us for the, probably the rest of our lives. When McCullough said that, that was the first time that I had heard somebody say, you can't get it twice. Our clinical experiences, we've seen lots of people get it multiple times and then get super dialed in so that it's not a surprise when it comes.

And if you do that preparation, I have to think that you're gonna be in a better state than if you didn't do anything. Health, performance, nutrition, longevity, ancestral living, biohacking, and much more. My name is Ben Greenfield. Welcome to the show.

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Well, it's been about two months since I had a, a pretty, uh, deep and wide ranging and I, I suppose based on the feedback, somewhat controversial podcast conversation with, with my friend Matt Cook, uh, where we talked all about covid and and vaccines while we were on a beautiful walk. Down there in San Jose on my last trip to California and that, that podcast wound up, I think, creating just as many questions as it answered.

You know, since then I've, I've done follow-up podcasts with guys like, uh, Donny Yz and recently did one with Dr. Peter Mercola. But, you know, Matt's in the trenches. He's treating people right and left, um, for, for both Covid and also working with people on vaccines. And uh, you know, if you're not familiar with Matt, he's been on my podcast a billion times already.

I'm just gonna say a billion, cuz that's easier than actually counting probably like eight or nine times. Yeah. Matt, Yeah, I guess neither of us know how to count. Yeah. But I, I, I, I'm still waiting for my, uh, bang greenfield jacket that you get after the fifth time. Apparently, YouTube sends you like some kind of a special plaque when you reach x number of subscribers, so I'm still waiting on mine from that.

I, I, I think I might have a hundred thousand subscribers on YouTube as of, uh, as of yesterday. So I don't know if that gives me anything. But, uh, aside from bragging rights, So anyways, though, uh, Matt, Matt, uh, he, he runs Biocept Medical in San Jose, which is, in my opinion, one of the best regenerative medicine facilities that exists in the world, period.

He used to be an anesthesiologist, uh, and, uh, now he has expanded to a whole bunch beyond that. Like he treats people for Lyme, for chronic pain, for ptsd, for mycotoxins. He's got, he, he's even got a background in traditional Chinese medicine along with, uh, uh, his degree from University of Washington School of Medicine and, uh, his residency at University of California, San Francisco.

He's done a fellowship in functional medicine. Uh, and I, I suppose probably the, the category that you could lump Matt into would be, he's a functional medicine doc. He's a really good functional medicine doc, and, um, I've learned a ton from him. As a matter of fact, Matt, I've learned so much from you. Do you, do you want to, my, my morning this morning was very Matt Cook esque.

You know how my morning went this morning before interviewing you? Oh, tell me. Oh boy. Okay. So, so I, I got up and I, I did a, a biochar session and then I, uh, I did a, uh, you know, a, a coffee enema to get things kind of cleaned out and the glutathione flowing. I then took, uh, activated charcoal and, uh, did a, did a methylene blue suppository, uh, got in the sauna for a half hour, sweated things out while I did flow yoga.

Finished up with a, a giant glass of, of ozonated water with Quinton in it and a five minute cold plunge. And then, uh, just did intranasal, uh, Cmax and clink and intranasal n a d, and then came down here into my basement to interview you. So it's, it's been a wonderful morning. Oh, that's the way you do it.

Yeah, that's the way, that's the way we do it around here, baby. I learned half that shit from you. I love coming up there. The cold is, I think, one of the greatest things that anybody listening can do because it's so profoundly helpful. You know, 28 days out of 30, I, I do as sauna and a cold plunge, you know, and I, you, I have to credit you for really getting me into that.

Mm-hmm. Um, because basically I felt so good when I would go to your house from doing that, that I realized kind of like my friend Peter Saladino, realized he said, Oh, I need to copy everything that's at Ben's house and put it into my house. I get, I get that a lot when people come up here. And, you know, the, the only thing I'd throw in there, Matt, for the sauna, like I mentioned that this is, this is like working for me now, is combining the sauna, right?

Because I know you have an infrared sauna out in your garage. Uh, but, uh, doing, um, prior to the sauna, methylene blue and ozone, so you've got basically infrared, methylene blue and ozone. And the mitochondria just love that. They soak it up and you feel even better when you get outta the sauna. So if you haven't, haven't messed around with those before your sauna session, try it cuz they pair really well with the infrared.

Okay. I just, I just got the new clear light, uh, so that I can do yoga sitting on the floor at the, the bigger. Footprint that you have. Yeah, yeah. The, the, apparently I'm gonna get that in like the next month. The sanctuary. Yeah. Well, we, we have a lot to talk about. Um, you know, you actually shot me over a document that you put together with Dr.

Mark Hyman, another really good functional medicine doc about a lot of things you guys have been finding that really works for early treatment of Covid 19 and, and long covid and even vaccine injuries. And the last time that we talked when we were on that walk, and I think, you know, one of the reasons that a whole bunch of people like were, were questioning that last podcast that we did.

I mean, you, you came out pretty, pretty bullish on vaccines. You treat many people who are, who are immunocompromised and, and have seen a lot of, of bodies in the streets, so to speak, when it comes to covid. And, um, you know, you, you definitely recommended the vaccines. I, I, I didn't wind up getting vaccinated, uh, as, as I think, you know, and I'm still kind of waiting for one that I'm, I'm comfortable with like, like novavax or novio or, or something like that.

But, you know, a lot has happened since then in, in terms of, uh, of the emergence of omicron. And I don't know where you want to start off, uh, but you know, it it, it seems like, uh, the, the Christmas gifts to the world this year actually was omicron. So maybe that's a, that's a good point to start. Yeah. Yeah, I know.

Success. What did you get for Christmas? And, you know, every single one of my friends, uh, and this tells you that we're old because all of our friends have. Kids in college and they all, all came home with Omicron. Um, and, and so then, you know, a couple things are gonna happen. Number one, this is potentially, you know, as you've got early data coming out of England and South Africa and Denmark, which is gonna indicate that it may not be as, as, uh, severe.

It may be more upper respiratory. And, um, there may be a lower percentage of people that have to go to the hospital. On the other side of the coin, you're probably gonna see a lot more people get it. It's much more contagious. And, and I'm hearing people say, you know, I have no idea how I got it. Now what's gonna happen from that is, is that the, and so you, it could, it's gonna be the good, bad, the the bad and the ugly.

And so it's gonna be a little bit of all of those. So one thing that's gonna happen is there's gonna be a whole bunch of people who get it, both vaccinated and unvaccinated, and most of those people are not gonna go to the hospital. Then most of those people are gonna start to develop some natural immunity.

How good is that natural immunity gonna be? It, it could be that it's gonna be better than one vaccine. It could be that, it could be as good as two vaccines. It could be that it's not as good as a vaccine and so it, were not gonna know that for a while. But, you know, on, from a silver lining perspective, what you're gonna have is you, you're gonna have a significant percentage of the unvaccinated community that's gonna start to build some natural immunity, and that's gonna push us closer towards herd immunity.

You mean because, because the unvaccinated could get omicron and that would, that would boost natural immunity in the population? Yes. Okay. Got it. That's kind of a positive, you know, we are seeing a lot of double and triple vaccinated people get omicron now. It may be that what's happening with them is, is it, it breaks through the vaccine and so the vaccines are losing a little bit of their effectiveness with this.

They may still be helpful and most likely they're somewhat helpful. They're just not help. They're, and they're helpful to keep keeping people outta the hospital, but not so helpful that you could walk into a room and prevent yourself from getting the infection in the first place. Well, that's, that's like the, the huge question that kept coming up over and over again after I interview Dr.

Peter Mercola, because Peter, and I'll, I'll link to that episode. If you guys go to ben greenfield fitness.com/matt Cook. December, that's Ben greenfield fitness.com/matt Cook December, which is the time that, that we're actually, uh, recording this podcast. December of 2021. Everybody, um, or not everybody, but a whole bunch of people were like, well, how could Peter say that I didn't get C Covid twice because I did, or my cousin did, or, we got super sick and we went in tested, got Covid.

And of course Peter said when I interviewed him that because that, that PCR cycle is being run so many times that it makes sense that if somebody gets sick and they go in and they get tested, that, you know, no matter what they had, whatever, flu, cold, whatever, that it test them positive for covid because the thing generates so many false positives yet.

Um, a. I've seen a couple of studies that have shown that spike protein, after you get covid once seems to kind of stick around in the system for a really long time, like 260 days or something like that. So I I, I wasn't sure if it was kind of like people still had the same covid they got before and that protein is just expressing maybe if their, their immune system gets triggered or something like that.

Or, uh, I, I think it was you who had mentioned to me that maybe there's something else going on here. You know, maybe people actually are getting covid twice. What, what, what, what do you think? Can people get covid twice? For sure. People can get covid twice. Okay. And so explain that. I've seen so Well, uh, people can get influenza twice and then what's happening is, is the covid that exists today is different from the wild type that came out a couple years ago.

And so then influenza keeps. Mutating and evolving. And so it's, you know, it's still here with us. It's gonna be with us next year. Covid is gonna be with us for the foreseeable future. I have had a lot of patients that have gotten covid more than one time, and it's not like y you know, we've, we have a lot of patients with complex immune problems where let's say they have Lyme disease and they never really recover.

And that, and part of that is just because the, uh, bacteria is in a stealth situation, living and, and doing something in the body. Okay. And so then it can come out and then go back in. And what causes it to come out and go back in relates to basically the physiology of what's going on in the body. On the other hand, with covid, generally when people get it again, what happens is they get an exposure, there's a known exposure, and then next thing you know, a couple days later they get sick.

And so I don't think of these follow-up things as being, uh, a long-term consequence of having the spike protein in the body. However, both with Covid vaccines, And with Covid, what happens is, is your, um, monocytes are basically white blood cells. They come in and try to mop that up and one thing that they will do is they will pick up that, that spike protein.

And this is a little bit of the work of, uh, Bruce Patterson, who's I think a very, very good doctor and is doing some very interesting work. Basically what he's finding is the monocytes can pick up that spike protein and it puts them into kind of an activated triggered state, and then that leads to immune dysregulation.

And so that's why people are having these vaccine problems, and then when that happens, it causes them to have elevated. Basically cytokines. And so you're gonna have an inflammatory, basically milieu that is created. And so as a result of that, there are long term, sort of long hauler type of symptoms. And so then that's one category, acute covid, and people definitely can get acute covid multiple times.

Okay. Now, when you say they can get acute covid multiple times, is that still theoretical or, um, like is there any way to test, aside from this PCR test to say, okay, so this is for sure covid that they've, they've got, again, I mean, to answer this question about whether or not you really can get it twice, part of that diagnosis is clinical.

So when, uh, someone, uh, gets a, a severe upper respiratory infection and it, and they're, they're testing positive and people are testing positive both by antigen as well as pcr. Now the, um, So then I would say it's a part laboratory diagnosis and it's part clinical diagnosis. But like when McCullough said that, that was the first time that I had heard somebody say, you can't get it twice.

And our clinical experiences, we've seen lots of people get it multiple times and from direct exposure. And I've gotten multiple phone calls. So just in the last two days of after that podcast come out, people telling me, oh, I know somebody who got it twice. And even the, the person, the first person that died of Omicron in the United States apparently had had C before.

I loved that podcast and I, there's a lot of good things in there that I would echo, but I, I, the, my only disagreement that would be very substantial would be, I, I definitely think that you can get it more than one time. And if, if I'm wrong, I would love to find that out and I will tell you I'm wrong. One subtle nuance, like, like you could get it more than one time, but would it be like you could get.

Covid once, and then you could get like the Delta variant once an omicron variant. Like is it that you could get a different variant or could it just be the, the same covid that you got before you could get again? So that's a great question and uh, I don't know the exact I, I, and so, well, so here's the thing.

As a doctor, what's happening is we don't have access to that type of testing. And so then when people go through their PCR testing, what happens is they'll take a percentage of those from a geographic area, and then they'll do c sequencing and they'll figure out, oh, is Alpha or is it Delta or is it, um, Omicron?

We don't really get access to that. I'm stuck basically reading the, the news, trying to figure out. That side of it. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah, it does. So, so regarding the, the, the treatment, first of all, from a preventive standpoint, cuz it, cuz you've got a lot of stuff even since the last time that we chatted that you've found that seems to really be working for treating c o d.

You've shared some of that with me and, and I know we want to get into some of that on the show, but before we, we get into what you're doing now as far as treatment and also prevention and prophylaxis, um, as far as the vaccine goes, like we talked a lot about the vaccine in our last podcast and, um, at that time you, you, uh, were pretty much of the opinion that, especially regarding Pfizer and Moderna, that like everybody should get vaccinated as kinda like a public health strategy.

Um, I'm, I'm curious kinda like where you're at as far as any, any like evolution of thought or anything that that's changed since that last episode that we did. It's in such an interesting conversation socially, ethically, politically. And the more that time goes on, the more that I feel relatively unsuccessful in trying to convert somebody who doesn't believe in the vaccines or who's worried about the vaccines to get 'em.

And so, uh, and then we're also at a new moment where suddenly we're gonna begin to see that, um, of these vaccines, some of the efficacy is waning. And so then probably they're not gonna all be created equal. And so then over the next six or eight months, we're gonna get, we're gonna have data on which ones actually work, how well do they work, and then how long do they work for?

This is gonna be with us for the, probably the rest of our lives. One thing we're gonna have to do is think about what is our strategy now? There's gonna be a whole bunch of people that are going to get infected. They're gonna have some natural immunity, and so then we'll be able to watch and see what happens with that over time.

Many of those are going to either got vaccinated or will get vaccinated afterwards. I still think that getting vaccinated is a, is a, is a good strategy that has relatively low risks. However, like what I talked about with the, the way the monocytes can pick up the spike protein, there are people who have long-term consequences.

You know, we, when we did that last podcast, I had been deep in the trench, has taken care of covid, and really was not seeing many vaccine injuries. Since then we, the phone has been to some extent ringing off the hook with vaccine injuries as well. Now the work of Bruce Patterson is super interesting because he's gonna be able to understand that.

And in general, our ability to heal vaccine injuries has been much better than our ability to heal long covid. The vaccine injuries will heal relatively quickly because the vaccine is gonna cause you to make some SP spike protein, but not nearly as much as you're gonna get if you actually get covid.

I'm pro-vaccine. I'm also aware that it's, uh, very complex political situation and, uh, the data is gonna evolve and, and our thinking and thought process is gonna evolve. And so I don't think that there's necessarily a right answer. I think that people should be given a choice because when you're faced with this whole.

Catastrophe of everything going on, and then you feel like the government's out to get you, you, you could see why people have kind of a PTSD type of response to that whole thing. Yeah, yeah. Now, now when you talk about the issues that you've seen with vaccines in the clinic and the fact that you guys have been able to manage some of those issues and, and even, like you just said, perhaps found them more easy to manage than long haul covid, can we talk a little bit about how you actually manage vaccine injuries and, and what you found to be working?

Oh, okay. That's a good one. If you think of this idea that the monocytes are picking up the spike protein and then they're triggered and they're inflamed, so then, and as a result, your immune system is. Up-regulated and so you have these inflammatory cytokines. So, so one thing we're doing is we're doing testing.

So we're testing cytokines, we're trying to make an assessment of what's happening. And then a lot of the people with vaccine injuries are people who have often other things going on. A lot of them will have either Lyme or mold, Epstein Barr, the, the classic causes of chronic fatigue syndrome and chronic immune stress.

So we do a workup basically to try to figure out, Which of those things are going on and sort of, and then a functional medicine assessment of like, what's their overall health now? Then you know, one thing we do is ozone, plasmapheresis and traditional plasmapheresis, which basically, uh, pulls plasma and antibodies and immune factors out of the body and then kind of resets the immune system.

We found that to be fairly helpful. Just regular ozone therapy has been helpful. We've been using peptides and so there are peptides that regulate immune function and the immune peptides in particular can be helpful, including like thymosin, alpha one, thiamin thymus, and beta four. We also will try to dive into basically just.

Looking to see what somebody's lifestyle, can we improve that? Can we optimize their vitamin D? Can we do all of the things that we would do to kind of get you in kind of a peak health state? And then finally, you know, the work of Bruce Patterson, which is kind of interesting, is there's a receptor on those monocytes called CCR five.

Actually it's an AIDS medication called Maraviroc, that's a CCR five antagonist. And what that will do is that regulates the monocytes and blocks their activity and, and sort of calms them down. And then, uh, you can use a statin and that calms down inflammation in the, in the walls of the blood vessels, where the monocytes can go, like a sh, like a, like a short term statin treatment.

Um, Like a short term statin treatment. Huh. So, so Mora Maraviroc is, is the name of, of the one that you said that prevents the monocytes from migrating all over the body. It kind of regulates and calms them and, and it blocks one of their receptors. Okay. And then you, you would combine that with like a, like a statin to decrease vascular inflammation?

Yes. Okay. Got it. That is like 1.0. And there's a lot of people who you will do somewhere between 20 and 90% of that protocol and then they just get a hundred percent better from what, be that, from long covid or from covid, um, vaccine problems. And so you'll have a percentage. Of people who you just get better in a couple weeks and then you, you know, I got off the phone with, uh, right before, uh, you called me with somebody who has, um, uh, a nurse that, uh, I used to work with years ago.

And she, you know, she, she just recently found me and she'd been struggling with this for months and months and months. And, and so then I, I've, we're, we're, you know, hard at work and some of these things will take a, I think a six month to maybe even longer protocol to, to heal because the immune system is so embedded in every other aspect of the body.

And when it gets out of control, just like in chronic line or just like in chronic mold, it takes a while to sort of reset that whole thing and resetting it requires a very comprehensive strategy. Okay. Got it. So some of the things though, it sounds like are really working if someone has access to this for vaccine injuries, would be the ozone and, and ozone dialysis or plasmapheresis like you talked about.

Kinda like the, the oil change for the blood combined with ozone and then statin and maraviroc. Uh, and, uh, by the way, which statin do you like to use? Uh, you can use, um, pravastatin, but then also I think that the peptides are very important and the, the peptides are going to be something that's going to ultimately.

Regulate the immune system back into a calmer state. And then the other thing is, is that, and it's gonna be on an experimental protocol, but exosomes can be very helpful along those lines and stem cells. And so a lot of those are not even gonna be available in the United States, but ultimately, It's not gonna be one or two things, but, uh, there's gonna be a lot of people that are easy cures.

And so that's why I like things like the Maraviroc Nystatin because there's, there's gonna be some easy cases where you're gonna be able to just reset it and then boom, they're gonna get back. But then there's gonna be, some cases are gonna be tricky, but then I think the goal is, is we need to get a hundred percent of them back as well.

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That's very important. It's optimize.me, spelled a z optimize.me/ben. If you gotta optimize.me/ben, you just basically get it all for free. It's crazy. It's amazing. So you're welcome. Optimize me slash Ben. How come the exosomes in the stem cells, why, why wouldn't somebody be able to get those in the states?

I thought that, that it was more just like stem cell expansion. Like if you wanted to do like a super high count, you'd have to go outta the states, but I thought you could still get exosomes and, and stem cells just fine in the us Well, so the stem cells that you get in United States are not culture expanded.

And so I, I personally think that there are some problems with those. There's less testing. Th they're just cells that basically somebody got, uh, when they harvested, uh, a placenta or an umbilical cord after a delivery. But that's a relatively low cost product that doesn't have a lot of testing and validation around it.

And, and ultimately, you know, a lot of people have abandoned those types of submodalities. Exosomes are here, but they're fundamentally going through, uh, uh, FDA regulatory pathway. And so it's, it's hard to tell. Uh, how long they're gonna be here for and then what, what, what will happen. But, um, we have seen very good results with using them for inflammatory immune problems.

Okay. You still like the exosomes from, uh, from Chimera Labs? I think that they're pro, they're the, I think that they're the best in the world right now. Okay. Gotcha. And do you typically do those as just like, like a, like an IV therapy? You can do those for long covid, you can do them as an IV therapy for acute covid.

You can do them as an IV therapy and that's sort of at the end of everything else. But you can also nebulize them, uh, well some people will inject them subcutaneously. Okay, cool. Got it. Now, now we were talking about peptides and you mentioned like, uh, some that I think people are probably familiar with as really good immune modulating peptides, like Thymosin alpha one and Thymosin beta four.

Um, I know BPC 1 57 and Lll 37 or two others that you use quite a bit. But then there was one that, that you were telling me about, and you actually sent me some of this. Uh, you, you said it's a pretty good ki