Part 3: Dr. Cook chats with Jackee Stang from Delic Radio

 You are listening to the Bio Reset Medical podcast with Dr. Matthew Cook.

The following is a discussion with Jackie Stan from the Delic Radio podcast. So you talked to, you said one person, but I know you've been taught, you've been posting a bunch of podcasts. Oh. So, um, who else? Oh, guess what? We're gonna, I'm talking to Jessie today. Remember my friend Jessie, she's kind of like the woman that does ketamine journeys.

Yes. She's like real spiritual. Yes. So we're, she's, she's gonna lead people on a meditation. Nice. So I'm doing that afterwards and. It's, you know, I, everybody, people are like, and then I go, and it was funny because I was, I was talking to some of the marketing people and I was like, and they were like, oh, she's your, she's the most popular one.

I go, we've never done her. I go, oh, you mean Jackie? And they go, yeah, she's the most popular one. So, but yes, it's great. And, and what I am loving is because this is sort of almost like my life. It's like kinda like, there's a little part of it that's kind of science and academicy, and then a little part of it's this interventional and kind of doing stuff.

And then a big part of it that's kind of like this, that's just kind of normal, I would say. And then like I'm, I'm looking forward to kind of bringing that voice in because then it's sort of like a couple days ago, somebody sent me a text and they said, on a scale from one to 10, how close are you to.

Curing the world. And I said, I woke up at a three, but I'm at eight now. But then it's kind of like, it just goes all over the map. And so sometimes it's a 10 and sometimes it's a one, but, and it's gonna keep going like that. But it's neat to have kind of different voices in the room because it's almost what, what we're like a family basically.

Yeah. And so then hearing those voices is really interesting to me. It's, it's a necessity to have a variety of voices in the room, in my opinion. Um, cuz you're not getting the full picture. I mean, I'm, I'm not a scientist or anything. It seems to be that if you have a hypothesis or you're trying to get somewhere, you want to evaluate data from as many different places as possible.

And I feel very strongly about that in the psychedelic community. I had this very talk like three times today on other podcasts and. And because right now the filter is very much medical therapeutic, sometimes science, sometimes anthropology. Um, but there, the, the data that's been acquired from the recreational psychedelic community over the last 40 years is, is wildly valuable.

And if we can find a way to, I don't know, collect it while keeping people safe and, and aggregate it with the more scientific DA data that's being collected with these studies now, then we're just gonna get to where we wanna go faster and we're gonna have a better picture. Uh, it's, you know, and it's again, relevant to Covid because you keep hearing all these numbers.

Numbers, numbers, numbers, and people are living and dying. Ugh. That was a terrible, terrible, terrible, um, reference. Said living and dying by these numbers. Sorry guys. Um, okay. That is true, Tina. People are living and dying by these numbers, but they're not accurate because we can't, because we didn't start testing soon enough.

Right. And we can't test full enough. And so it's, they're really just a data point, an important data point, but it's not the full picture. Y you know what, so this is a good one. So then I, you know who another person I had a good call with. Who's that? Matt, staying? Yeah, because that's pretty good. So the, I, so there are, they're relaxing some of the laws around telemedicine.

And so then, uh, there's gonna be, it sounds like used could be legal for me to ship ketamine to, uh, and do a whole medical conversation to patient. And then that patient is gonna be able to have a guided ketamine journey with a oral dissolving tablet on Zoom. And the, you know, it's interesting, we talked to, we talked to, I've, I've heard, uh, five or six cases of people who were, you know, had some problem and it had been under wraps for a long time, and all of a sudden, you know, addiction and this and that.

All of a sudden the wheels come off the bus because they're all this, everybody's stress level is so high. And so whether it be, there's a lot of substances out there that are sort of quasi-legal that I think can be very therapeutic in terms of resetting anxiety and resetting depression and resetting pain.

And a lot of times if that just buys you a couple weeks of hope, that might be worth it because just getting your, it's kinda like even like you and me, maybe we were a two yesterday, but we're at eight today and you know, tomorrow we might dip down to a lower number and go back. And so it's like a, and so in a way, this covid thing is a journey with ups and downs.

But, um, I'm hopeful. And, you know, I think you said something really good, Jackie, because this is the greatest scientific experiment that the world has ever done. And it's gonna speed up the, the time that it takes to do science because there, there are, Hundreds, thousands of clinical trials that are all going on right now, and they're all sped up and we're gonna get an answer in a month, and then that, that's gonna lead to more information that's gonna lead to better answers.

And so we need to then do that in, I, I think the, the field of mental health is a, a field that has so much opportunity for research and so much opportunity. Like, like as you and I know, just imagine if we could get a trial where we looked at N A D and Ketamine, because I would say anecdotally, from my experience, taking care of patients, when you do N A D and Ketamine, it works like a hundred times better than if you just did Ketamine by itself.

Why do you think that is? Because, so, um, in, in the brain there are a whole bunch of different areas that do something. And so they all have a name, like there's a motor cortex, there's an association, motor cortex, there's the prefrontal cortex. And so there's all of these different locations that do something, and they're called broadman areas.

They're areas within the brain. And so one, one idea is, is that sometimes the electrical activity in a certain area of the brain will, will become slightly dysfunctional. And so you can measure that by taking an electrical picture of the brain called A Q E E G. It's like an electrical map, uh, that's similar to an EKG.

Now, um, my, my clinical experiences is that when we give N a d, it seems to metabolically turn areas on. And what I think happens is, is that the, the N A D goes to all of those different broadband areas and optimizes how the mitochondria are functioning in all of those areas. And so then once you start to evenly turn on every physiological area in the brain, then the brain is just less stressed.

And so then it's, once the brain is in a better physiological state, then ketamine is gonna have a better effect because the brain is more optimized than it was without the n a D. And then I notice people will have, I don't know if you notice this, but I notice that after the, uh, after the, the session, often people will have less side effects and feel less jangly if they did n a D first.

Yeah, I've, I've never done a, uh, ketamine clinically without n a d. And so I will say though, that it's, there's almost zero, um, To recuperate from except from the amazing, uh, psychological benefits that you got, you know, that lasts for me, that lasts about seven days. The positive benefits, I think roundabout, but, um, yeah, it's barely, there's barely anything to contend with from a, uh, from a standpoint of like feeling better or hangover effect.

So then, so then here's like, remind me to go back into Na d but, so then this is a good one cuz this is kind of like this, the, this conversation that I love that I'm having with you. It's interesting if you can do we do something that has a seven day effect. So all of a sudden it's kinda like you made, I I heard you say one time the coast is clear.

It's kind of like the coast is clear for seven days. Right? Right, exactly. So then now that is a really good amount of time. And so then we've been working on our ketamine workbook and I'm gonna have you help me because then that it's, and, and that's why I think you've done so great in the last year is because you've done a lot of introspection in those days and it all of a sudden, I, I like to say if you can just have one good day and turn that into two or three and turn that into four or five or six or seven, and then you can, you can do that, that starts to reset electrical pathways and we, and, and it's almost like we get re reset to the factory default setting, or it's like we got upgraded to a, just a better, more functional operating system.

Yeah. And once that works, then it just kind of starts to, that's, that's you now you got a new operating system. Well, and that's what you want. That's what I want. I'm happy to just be at like ground zero and as a depressed person or whatever my diagnoses was or is. Uh, I'm not sure. I don't know that I buy into most of the, the mental ones.

Um, but I was certainly fucked up and, and feeling suicidal in my thirties, which was, which was new because while I, I spent a lot of my twenties upset and hysterical and up and down, uh, mood swings and almost like manic behavior. Um, I, I never thought about suicide. So to, to even, to even have an hour where you.

Are no longer contending with what we've talked about before, like the little doubt monster, just even have an hour to not contend with that is so effective at long-term treatment that at least for me, um, that I'll do, I'll do anything, um, to keep, to stretch that hour out, to stretch it out to a day, to stretch it out, to seven days, to keep doing the work and the discipline, um, to, to break those neuro pathways for myself so that I can be at like a homeostasis.

I could be my optimal self at whatever age or however old my cells are, um, in any given moment. Because that feels amazing when you're, when you've clicked in and you're just ki you're just like, you're human. You're not being agitated by anything that's broken or hanging off or you know, that like bag that gets caught in your wheel when you're driving sometimes and it's just like flapping.

If you don't, you don't have any of that shit going on. It's like, it's great. Could like fly. Let me ask a question. How much, if you do n a d by itself, do you, does it help with that, that plastic bag that's wrapped around your tire when you're walking around in your life? So

ketamine is, so far, I'm just like in the middle of my journey here, but ketamine so far, clinical prescribed ketamine, um, is the most effective. But n a d on its own is like, is up there. And I think that might have something to do though, with the fact that I like tripping. And you don't trip necessarily on n a d I mean, there's a sensation of flushing, which is kind of fun, but, um, you're not actually like going anywhere.

So that might be it. But I mean, n a D is like, you know, I'm a huge fan. I wish that, like, psychedelics aside, if we could get any people, more people just with on N A D, just get 'em however, you know, 1500 milligrams over three days or whatever, and start there. I think it would make a huge difference. It did for me.

So, so this is, I, this is maybe like one of my favorite things of all time. I, although I got a comment today, this is my favorite comment of all time, but, um, the y you know, I, I, this psychiatrist, um, who does a lot of N A D. He, I, I was talking to him and I was like, well, blah, blah, blah. I go, what psychiatric conditions does it help?

And then what does it not help? And then he, and he'd been doing it for 20 years. Ah-huh. And, and he goes, there's no psychiatric condition that n a d doesn't help. And interestingly, did I tell you about the time I had, this kid came into my office in a fugue state, so he like, basically couldn't talk and was in, had had, had a trip go horribly wrong.

Mm-hmm. And it was, you can go into something where you almost like get disassociated. Mm-hmm. And so then the, the brother brought him in and the dad and I was like, gonna take him to the hospital and do a 50, like admit him, where they would've given him tons of drugs. Yeah. And so then the family begged me to give him n a d cuz they were like, you've already fixed everybody.

So probably if you do N A d, he'll, he's gonna get. Better. And I was like, it was interesting cuz I really had a lot of resistance to the idea because I had, I just was afraid something would go bad, you know what I mean? And he came in a bad seat and so I just said, fine, I'll do it. You know, I got them to consent to it and so I gave him not even a hundred milligrams, we were just drip.

I made a bag and I was dripping it pretty slow. And this has to do with Jackie, the idea of all of these electrical parts of the brain. So imagine we're on video, so imagine like this part's to sleep. And so then the blood flow is evenly coming up here. And so the N A D starts to turn this part of the brain on.

I was like, oh hi. It's the craziest thing that's ever happened to me. He sat there and then he just like, he goes, Hey, I'm back. And then he just started talking normal, like wow. It was the craziest thing. And I remember, and I had called, I called this friend of mine, Before I did it. And, and it was kind of like, I remember I was with you and Matt and, and we were talking, you know, cuz we, I we had done a session for you and then you go, I don't have a di And this is kind of also a little counter to like, let's say traditional psychiatry.

You were like, I don't have a problem. I'm o I'm okay. I don't have a diagnosis of, you know, and that's basically kind of my belief system about you. You're basically just fine. And you know, basically maybe if you had some dysfunctional patterns and stuff like that from behavior trauma and stuff like that.

And I think fundamentally, almost all of us do. And so then some, so in some cases it's a little bit more visible, but, um, And so this is kind of like this ongoing experiment that I'm super excited about. Um, and I'm, I'm, I'm just excited about it. Yeah. Well, for me, it keeps coming back to the idea that I have a lot to do with how well I am.

And what I mean by that is, well, when you and I and Matt, when we all first met, I was in a much different Headspace and the Headspace that I had been in for 30 years, which was that of, well, someone's gonna tell me what's wrong with me. Someone's gonna tell me what to do to fix it. Someone's going to do it all for me, right?

Mm-hmm. It's gonna come from the outside. Right. And that's, that's just, you know, I grew up with doctors in the house and, you know, just Western medicine or I, I don't know why that is. I just had this like belief that I hadn't challenged. And then when you and I started working together and, and then there's like a couple of things that would come up and, and, and you worked in a way that allowed me to think, oh no, okay, I am a huge player here in terms of if I'm gonna get better, but more importantly, the, my belief system, uh, if I believe I'm going to get better, if I believe I am better, if I believe, you know, and that you, we could have that conversation till we're blue in the face.

It's like going back to the brain. It matters what you think. Oh, I got a good, I've got a good one for you on this. And so then this one, this is an idea. I love this idea, and I, this one kind of, I hit upon me insecurity of the you're gonna be okay. And so then like, uh, and I, for, for me, if I was, was to say it like, like in the past I had a, a fair bit of pain, like physical pain.

And so then if I had pain, I would have this little creeping idea in the back of my mind that's like, oh no, I'm gonna be in pain. And it was like I had, I had like a little internal anxiety about, about it. And then particularly, what the hell is my career? Anesthesiology. My career was like, you know, unfortunately anesthesiologists are not good at like curing pain.

They just kind of numb it. Right? Um, now then what happened is, as I now have injected every joint in my body with stem cells, and so I generally don't have pain, but now if something happens to me, like when I'm exercising, I'll feel it and then I'll know exactly what it is. I'll be like, oh, I tore that muscle.

And then I'll go, okay, I know how to fix that, and it's probably gonna take like two or three weeks. Right? And so then all of a sudden there's no more insecurity around the fact of walking around for two weeks in pain. And not, and not knowing if you're ever gonna get out of pain. Almost anything that happens to me, I just think, oh, I'm probably gonna cure that in two weeks.

And so then what happened is I noticed this confirmational change this year so that whenever anything happens, it doesn't stress me out at all, even if I'm in pain. And so then the transition then is to imagine like if you're in psychological pain, but then you know, you realize, oh, I know how to fix this.

Like, you know, and, and I've actually been kind of running that in energy too lately, the last couple, last couple weeks of the covid where I'll, I'll be in some kind of like emotional frustration and then I'll real, I'll go, I'll probably fix this by tomorrow. And then that is kind of like suspending disbelief for like the seven days with ketamine or something.

And so then once you can just kind of wrap your head, if you can, if you can wrap your head around that and then project in and see a point in the future. We talked about that the other day a little bit. Then basically I think it's super effective. It is. I've been using that and that, that, that's, that was a very popular tidbit nl from our last chat was that notion right there of like imagining or manifesting whatever, um, whatever you wanna, whatever mechanism it is or you wanna call it.

Uh, it works for me. I'm practicing at least. It's really about your toolbox, right? So you have the tools that when you're talking about physical pain, you have all the tools in the world. Uh, And it's unfortunate that more people, when I'm talking about physical pain, because it's psychological too, right?

They're connected. Um, pain management seems to be a problem in America, at least. I know a lot of people are in pain. What we do is we give them opioids or something similar and then they just, they're just still numb, but not out of pain. Not out of pain. So then it's interesting Jackie, so then this is a good one.

And then imagine then, we'll, we'll do this one. This is a little two part thing. We'll do this for both of us. Okay. And so when, um, when I was, um, when I was in medical school, this person said to me, He goes, I, I'll, I'll tell you what to do. And he goes, this is gonna work for sure. So I was like, it was like a, it was like a person who pulled me aside at the end of a rotation cuz you wrote, and he goes, look, I'm gonna tell you what to do.

He goes, just follow this advice and you're gonna be fine. And then I go, oh, okay. So he goes, what you gotta do is he goes, he goes, everything is screwed up. He goes, you have to understand that the everything is screwed up and every, it's not good. So I was like, oh, this was a very wise person. And so then he goes, so what you gotta do is you just gotta walk around and do your job.

And he goes, you're gonna have to do it for a number of years. And he goes, you're gonna walk around the hospital. And he goes, the hospital's totally screwed up. And he goes, all the clinics are totally screwed up. And he goes, the model's wrong, but nobody knows it yet. Because they're in the box and they can't see anything other than the way that they're doing it.

And if you tell 'em to do it in a different way, he goes, they can't take it. But he goes and he goes, you're not gonna have enough tools in your toolbox. I'm kind of paraphrasing when in those first three or four years. So he goes, this could be super painful and frustrating cuz you're just running around and you're just kind of a pawn on the chessboard.

Okay. But then that's gonna go along. And he goes, at some point when you become like a rook or a bishop or something like that, you're, you're up a little bit and you're gonna begin to realize what's wrong with the whole thing. And he goes, at that point then you have to make your exit. And he goes, you have to make a change.

And so then he went through all of these examples of doctors that made sort of monumental. Changes in medicine because they were walking around seeing a surgery that didn't work. And so they said, let's do this. They came up with something else. And, and that is fundamentally like what I did in my career.

And interestingly, I basically woke up every day for like, about 17 years after that conversation and I said, I'm gonna, I'm gonna find out my idea today. And I never, I kind of found, I knew what, that it was screwed up, but I didn't have a, a thing to do. Right. And then all of a sudden it hit me, like, it hit me like a, like a, a tidal wave hit me.

And then I realized that like suddenly, and I think that in the same way, what's gonna happen is, is your toolbox is going to exponentially grow. In the, within, in the, in with, there's, there's psychedelics and then there's supplements. Okay. And then there's just like an attitude, you know what I mean? Like the, the, maybe the meat delegate.

I got that. I got that done already. But yeah. PhD attitude. But, so then what's gonna happen is that toolbox then, and, and, and interestingly, you know how we, we talked about, um, like there was other people who maybe had their own ideas about what psychedelics were or whatever. Sure. I remember I said, fuck those people.

Yeah. Because like what happens is you can't capitulate to a dominant paradigm if you're trying to change the world. True. And what I naively, um, came into, This particular project I'm in now, delic, uh, thinking or not thinking, was that it was somehow going to be easy to be at the beginning of something.

That it was that, that I, I somehow was not going to feel the resistance. It didn't even occur to me, um, actually until I started feeling the corners, the sharp edges of certain parts of the resistance. Um, and then I was like, oh, okay, well I didn't, I just didn't foresee this. But now that I'm here and the, the more of those edges that I get in this particular project and this business and this buddying psychedelic space, the more I realized that that's just a sign that like, yeah, I'm on the right track.

Um, exactly. Because that you don't, I would be, if I wasn't feeling the resistance, I wouldn't be on the right road. Dave, Dave Asprey. I love, I loved it. He told me he was, he said his happiest moment was when he got put on quack watch. Wait, what's quack Watch? Well, just like this, some guy has a thing that like to what?

That he, if, if you're saying things that, that aren't, uh, founded by randomized controlled clinical trial Sure. Then, then you can't say anything. And so I think, and so, um, which is total horse shit in my mind. Kinda, yeah. Well, in my mind it's like that's an impossible mindset because I'm not going to me personally and wildly curious, and while I'm not a scientist, I'm really interested in science, so, And I'm yet, I'm not going to go get my PhD.

I'm not gonna go to m mit. I didn't go to m mi t. So like to, to say that I as a citizen scientist don't have any data to share it, it seems, it just seems like dumb. It just seems like bad science. It seems like, and this is kind of an ongoing conversation you and I've started to have about, uh, physicians and scientists and like the academic type being more social and opening themselves up to, in a more mainstream way or maybe being a little bit more vulnerable.

Um, I've been thinking about that a lot since you and I brought up the other day because I think it's, yeah, because that's, that's like necessary to fix the system that's broken. Yeah. That, you know, that's a, I it's, it's like even, so like this conversation I've had like a lot of conversations with like groups of people.

Where all of a sudden they all started asking questions in front of each other, you know, and even very personal, but it's like once there's a social, there's a social validation. It's like in group therapy. And then like, there's this social aspect of like us talking about like, uh, as soon as we're talking about, like, let's say you were, you were down at some point in the past, but as soon as you're talking about it, it kind of normalizes it.

It's almost like Howard Stern. It's like, okay, he's anxious. Right? But I have to think that the fact that he's able to talk about it makes him less anxious. A hundred percent. It's, uh, again, an earlier conversation today, the with, uh, a gentleman named Dell, uh, Porter, who's, uh, many things but, uh, an anthropologist, medical anthropologist, and he's studied shamanic traditions.

Compared to sort of western medicine for many, many years. And he talked about, uh, the tradition of consuming psychedelic substances as a group in ceremony in indigenous cultures outside of, um, I don't know, north America or whatever, which is, you know, there are people that consume psychedelic substances as a group collectively in America, but not, I don't know that it's in the same vein as the, the shamanic ceremonial traditions, but the way he described it was that it's not, it's not necessar.

It's an individual experience, but the integration requires the rest of your community. And yeah, that's a good one. Like you, basically, the way I received it was, well, you can't really heal without your community. Um, And I've had, and that your community is responsible for your integration in the same way you're responsible for your integration, which I think is so beautiful.

And I've personally had a few instances where I've tried, like I've sought that out and failed a little bit, but mostly because the people in the room, uh, in hindsight, this is what I think didn't have the tools to share. Mm-hmm. Right. Everybody that's, I think everyone wants that. But, and, and some cultures we're just like, you know, stiff upper lip.

Like we're, we don't really, we don't know how to open up and integrate, um, collectively whether you're taking psychedelics or whether you're talking about politics or, or solving a math problem. So, so I'm gonna go back to the beginning of the conversation cause uh, you know how. You said, oh, in the past I would try to avoid eye contact and then, you know, it's, it's a trip because lately, you know, uh, emotional connection is kind of a popular concept these days, right?

These people be like, Hey, do you want to connect? Right? And it's kinda like, it's like a, it's interesting, but in, in those sort of ceremony settings that people do, I think what happens is, is that there, there's an opportunity to, to completely look and see and receive someone like in the who they are. And interestingly, I think it's probably extremely therapeutic to be, to either see someone and also be seen because then you realize basically on the other side of that, you know, honor roller hat.

It's just consciousness, you know? We're just, we're just basically beings of light. And so then the then, and that's like the most important thing. And then the most important thing in life is to have some moments like that. And a lot of times you don't have a lot of 'em. Psychedelics make that a little bit easier if, if, if it's done right.

But that's a, that's a, that may be the biggest if of all time. Um, yeah. But, but then, but then seeing once you connect and, and are accepted, it's like amazing. Right? Yes. It's akin to that feeling that you can get sometimes in ketamine therapy, where you're like, you're just okay. And that, you know, not to diminish.

The state of being. Okay, but no, to champion the idea of just being okay. Right? Because when you're, you know, to be seen from your community means that you're like, you're good, you're good. Yeah, you're okay. And that, which is my friend, which is my thesis, Jackie, that you're okay. There's no diagnosis.

Remember now. Then here's my idea though. Then this is the next idea, which is then basically as soon as you can wrap your head around that, then you can just be in that state. Like you could just kind of see someone and be like, oh, hey, how are you? And then be, and you could go into, it's almost like you can channel the same connected kind of shamanic, um, uh, ceremony like, uh, spirit state at, at, at any, at any time.

Right. That's the ideal. That's, that's where you wanna get to. Yeah. It's interesting, like I am able to do it for sure, for like five or six hours a day. Yeah. And so then it's, and that's just practice. How long did it take you to get there? Well, I think that if I could talk to me like when I was like, you know, 32, I think I could have, I could have, I could have gotten myself there in like a year.

Mm-hmm. But like I was, I just like, at that time I just was managing risk and at a status of crazy stress every minute of the day. It's kinda interesting. Mm-hmm. Yeah. The shift in stress in that I've felt so far in quarantine from the like, It's the previous, the world is operating around me and I have to like, pay attention to everything that's happening and like catch a few things that are happening and it's like I feel like I'm behind and I need to catch up.

And so, you know, and that stress or not relating to the things or like picking something that you didn't want or dropping it or whatever, you know, is, is a different kind of stress like that. Now it's of course an existential stress of like, oh shit, like am I gonna die or sooner than I would like or are worse is my, are my loved ones gonna die?

Um, but that external stress for me is gone unless I like open Instagram or the news, but it's um, it's calmer in a way. More settled. Yeah, I know cuz you're not, you're not out there. So it's more virtual. And, you know, I had to, I, I had to connect, like if the finances is kind of interesting too. Oh man. Yeah.

With, with this whole thing because, um, basically all of a sudden, like, you know, it's interesting, I watched a really good thing, basically the, the driver of our economy, obviously there's big tech and stuff like that, that's gonna be fine, like Apple computer. But, um, the restaurants and the hotels and the, the doctor's offices, all of a sudden, like all that revenue just disappeared.

And so then it's kind of like, back to your manifesting idea. I just said, I'm gonna totally do something different and it's gonna work. And then I kind of basically just said, it's gonna work. Yeah. And uh, and then basically I'm just doing stuff all day. But I'm not gonna, I haven't stressed about it, like I've just said, oh, this is, I'm, I, I'm just expecting that it's gonna work.

Right? Because your driving force is rooted in just your belief and you're being disciplined about reminding yourself about that belief. That's like, that's the force. And then you anchor in that, and then you do stuff. Yeah, you just do stuff, but you're riding a wave. You're riding a wave. That's like a wave of, I'm going to ride this wave.

And, and you might get pummeled by the way, but you know, it's gonna, it, it's that, that is a driving, it is a driving force to, to me, and then I say this to people because if you can kind of get to a driving force mentality, that is amazing because then, then it's like, As you kind of